Sprit Shamans and the Gods

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hollyfant
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Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by hollyfant »

Game-mechanically, Spirit Shamans are simply neutered Druids. Fluff-wise they're problematic, especially when it comes to integrating them into the Forgotten Realms setting. Hence, questions:
  • By their original write-up (in Complete Divine), Spirit Shamans get their spells by bargaining with spirits. In the Realms, all divine casters must have a patron deity. So...
    • Do they actually get their spells from a god, or from the spirits (possibly on behest of a god)?
    • Which would be acceptable gods? Just the ones that also patronise druids? Any god that might conceivably be relevant to Elementals, Fey or Undead? Or any deity at all?
  • Where do Spirit Shamans come from? The only canonical source I know of is this WotC article, which puts them solely in Rashemen and Osse. Complete Divine suggests they could come from any barbaric, spiritual origin; the Uthgars may spring to mind. Or would any "I see dead people" character background suffice?
  • This thread in "Admin" promises
    Wynna wrote:a description of the RP background of spirit shamans
    Did that ever come to pass?
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by danielmn »

As for acceptable gods, try making a spirit shaman pc in alfa, the list of gods is already narrowed to what is acceptable, ie the elemental gods and some others...so looks like the list is druidic as far as gods are concerned.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by hollyfant »

danielmn wrote:so looks like the list is druidic as far as gods are concerned.
The same is true for Rangers, but our own rules allow them to take any other deity as a patron too (as per Faiths and Pantheons). And didn't we already have a Kelemvorite Spirit Shaman PC?
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

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http://www.alandfaraway.org/node/950

Let me know who wants/needs edit privs that doesnt have it, so you can update this more as you see fit.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Kalrenath »

Honestly, my first impression of the spirit shaman source of strength made me think of the L5R system: talking to the kami.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Brokenbone »

Going out on a limb, the statement that in FR, "all divine casters must have a patron" may not 100% fit for content that gets shoehorned into the setting. Nothing about Spirit Shamans I've read suggests anything other than agreements with "spirits", whether fey, elementals, or undead. They may have a faith independent of that, the one which determines where they go when they die, but that'd also mean they've got no dogma to follow, except whatever they decide the fey, elementals or undead want for them. Reminds me a bit of whatever kinds of casters you'd find in the Oriental Adventures setting, vague ancestor worship type stuff.

Still, in D&D, non-gods can still be worshiped and grant favours, thinking along the lines of horrible demonic/devilish patrons who aren't even on the bottom rung of godhood. Sure, it also means your soul is bound for everlasting service to these "near gods", damned if I know though whether that's a parallel in any way to the Spirit Shamans and their ultimate fate. Serve the fey, end up their plaything in the afterlife, serving wine or washing dishes at a neverending party... serve elementals, and become a mindless force of nature... serve the undead, and end up some kind of servitor undead* to whoever pacted you. Just not much written on the subject that I can find.



*not necessarily evil! Could end up the undead squire to the LN undead knightly type you derived your powers from, whatever.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Kalrenath »

There's also the possibility of serving your ancestors or through them, your family's descendants... sort of defining the PC's afterlife by the choices made in life "echoing through eternity". Belief becoming a reality... think the Neverending Story.

Would spirit shamans be forced into the Wall of the Faithless? Seems a bit more abstract than the core pantheon's beliefs... which is why i'm glad they are rare.

I've never much approved of anything canon being really "set in stone", as campaign settings are made to work in conjunction with the intentions of the storyteller.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by hollyfant »

Kalrenath wrote:Would spirit shamans be forced into the Wall of the Faithless?
There's no reason why they can't pay homage to the Gods, even though their powers do not come from them. So they'd go into the wall if they're faithless, just like anyone else. The only difference is that the spirit shaman actually can be faithless and still raise people from the dead.

I imagine to a shaman, the gods are basicly "über spirits". Embodiments of core principles of the universe, not unlike elementals. And shamans in their right mind would placate big spirits like that with offerings and such, while restricting actual deals to the more manageable ones instead. Lest their kids end up warlocks... :twisted:
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Brokenbone »

I guess again on point of RP, no player of a cleric reasonably expects to hear from their patron through portents, signs, or manifestations. Instead, they have dogma by which to try to guide their actions. It tends to be printed in the sourcebooks that God A = Dogma A, God B = Dogma B, etc. God A doesn't have to "show up" as a DM possessed NPC and say "hey, I think you should do X, Y, Z in order to support my goals on Faerun", takes all the mystery out of it and devalues the role of these all powerful patrons. *Poof* *Gives a Level 2 acolyte a 30 minute interview, weekly, nothing better to do*

Regarding Spirit Shaman sorts though, it sounds like they actively pact with something (fey / elemental / undead... note they don't say other outsider, guess that could mean Warlock if you got into demons / devils?).

Contrast this with Warlocks who had "an ancestor do it, but the current generation still enjoys it." Warlocks, you can sweep all the "mysterious fiendish patron and their desires" stuff under the rug and maybe resolve someday if the DM wants to.

Spirit Shaman, I'm not so sure... it sounds like it's a "present" bargain. I do not know if this means the DM has to agree to something with the player about the bargain and its origins, do's and don'ts, etc. Possibly needing to write up a powerful NPC patron who is sort of like the SS's personal mini-god, decide on the NPC patron's goals whether in its own realm or in Faerun, personality, whatever. Still may only be able to contact the thing with Augury, Commune, etc., unless that NPC chooses to initiate contact, or if some quest to visit someplace "dear" to the patron might be undertaken, but still, there must be goals in order that there may be aversions as well... things the SS will not do, on pain of losing powers.

I am sure anyone could write up a lovely Fey Prince or Elemental Potentate or spooky Undead Lord of some sort as such an NPC "director", unless maybe there's already some in canon that anyone wanted a DM to further flesh out with them... anyhow, it's kind of like pulling a new mini/personal patron out of the air. Distinct from one's faith, though I guess pick something not horribly misaligned with one's divine faith, unless wanting to risk Falseness on death.

Anyhow, just thoughts, though if someone's ever read more about SS's, good place to chime in.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Kest »

Why are they called "Spirit Shamans", anyways? Isn't that a bit redundant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Random Hajile »

Kest wrote:Why are they called "Spirit Shamans", anyways? Isn't that a bit redundant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
Because there are also Dragon Shamans.
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Kest »

haha what

way to go naming classes without even knowing what the word means, wotc
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by hollyfant »

The whole concept of spirits rides roughshod over D&D. "There these spirits, see? Only nobody can see them, see? Well they're ghosts and faeries and elementals, but they're spirits too, see? And they're powerful. Really big-time powerful. Raise the dead kind of powerful, see? But they're not gods or fiends or somesuch. Oh no. They're much more powerful. Nobody can see them or find them or stop them. They're everywhere, see? Everywhere! And they're working for you. Just 'cause you're such a nice bloke, see?"
Mind you, worshipping your local nymph always seemed like a good idea anyway. :angel:
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by Kest »

that sounds problematic with the death aura or whatever they have
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Re: Sprit Shamans and the Gods

Post by danielmn »

hollyfant wrote:The whole concept of spirits rides roughshod over D&D. "There these spirits, see? Only nobody can see them, see? Well they're ghosts and faeries and elementals, but they're spirits too, see? And they're powerful. Really big-time powerful. Raise the dead kind of powerful, see? But they're not gods or fiends or somesuch. Oh no. They're much more powerful. Nobody can see them or find them or stop them. They're everywhere, see? Everywhere! And they're working for you. Just 'cause you're such a nice bloke, see?"
Mind you, worshipping your local nymph always seemed like a good idea anyway. :angel:
Yes. Kozakurans should be banned from NWN1 immediately. All humanoid Shamans, such as Bugbear shamans, should be removed, because shaman does not = Preist of Humanoid God. I concur!

On a more conciliatory note, I don't find the fact that there would be certain PC's attuned to a realm of spirits normal PC's can't tap into running roughshod over anything. Some CAN see them and communicate with them, I often rped that with The spirit shaman I tried out. The origins of the Fey and Elementals do not rule out that they can't be spirits of another nature...or more to the point, spirits OF nature. I could see them tapping into the same source of energies that a druid would tap into...the force of nature, the powers of fire, air, water, earth and lastly spirit. As for spirits being everywhere...I am glad they put that in, instead of having every spirit be shuffled off to Kelemnvor to be assigned a place of residence. I think having the capacity to be a medium between both benevolent and malign spirits makes for some damn good rp...especially if the spirits are not freindly, but intend to harm for reasons one has to figure out. I have seen many plots in NWN1 well before NWN2 came out where ghosts/spirits were used, that no one could see, stuff flying around the room ect.

So I guess your quandry is, from whence does the power come? Is it nature? Is it from the spirits who still exsist on faerun? Is it from spirits beyond faerun who have already found a place in another plane? Considering to change spells the spirit guide of a shaman has to do some intercession on behest of the shaman, I am inclined to believe less from a natural source and more from a spirit force, it could be a mixture... Indeed it does branch from the traditional "you get your powers from a God" or "You draw your power from nature itself" or "It is inherent within you just waiting to be unleashed" or "You must study extremely hard these hand movements, words, and use these certain worldly items in order to tap into and make lay lines of magic do what you want" or "You have red dragon blood way far back in your ancestry, therefore you can cast all these neat spells" or "You can sing a song and your allies fight better in combat" or....wait...every example I've just described is pretty out there. Oh yeah....it's a game based in fantasy... I FORGOT! In essence, runs roughshod over what? All of the already fantastic and zainy ways magic is tapped into? For the sake of closure, just say the powers of an SS comes from a source others seem not to be able to tap into...elsewise I don't think you'll find much literature on it. BB made a great comparison between the Koza's though...perhaps the magic could come from your own familial line!

And as for the so powerful they can raise the dead...well, they can talk to spirits...and DO have a spirit guide that acts as an intermediate between themselves and the spirit realm...that's a lot more than some Preist who's probably never seen or going to see his God...
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