(Lesser) Vigor

Scripted ALFA systems & related tech discussions (ACR)

Moderators: ALFA Administrators, Staff - Technical

Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

(Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

Hollyfant wrote:At 3rd (or 4th) level, healers can cast an Extended Lesser Vigor, and the target will be neigh unkillable for 24 rounds - when brought in the negatives, a PC will automatically stabilise and slowly return to conciousness. It's effectively a 4 minute Regeneration.
This long-standing wrench in the cogs likely deserves its own handling. Moving it here, that we don't get too tangled in the original thread (which has opened up a terribly-complex sort of discussion, and is likely to spawn many tangents and become hard to follow as it is).
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

I suppose that question #1 here is whether or not this is desired behavior.

Obviously, the scenario described is both systems working as designed, but I'm relatively-certain that neither system was designed in the context of the other.
t-ice
Dungeon Master
Posts: 2106
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

If Extended (Lesser) Vigor really is too strong, then the answer is to simply remove the ability to use the Extend Spell Feat with the Vigor line?

For what it's worth, I've never seen this becoming a problem. Vigors have always been for after-battle recovery, the Cure line is your combat healing. Vigors just don't heal fast enough. Consider that it takes 6 turns to come back up from the floor if you rely on this. In practice I doubt this is overpowering, the vigor duration still isn't so long, and you waste a lot of it if you cast it before battle. And during battle you waste moves to cast it. And a spell slot of course. It can be a useful safety feature, sure, but until someone proves it's an issue of concern by actually powercharging himself by using it, I'd say it isn't.
User avatar
hollyfant
Staff Head on a Pike - Standards
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: the Netherworl... lands! I meant the Netherlands.

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by hollyfant »

The nearest thing to abuse of the spell happens when players are low-level soloing, since then it's your best chance of surviving unconsciousness. And given that in most other cases the CXW line of spells is superior, there is no real issue apart from a (probably) unintended interaction between Vigor and our damage-capping scripts.

Mention should be made of the option to make the spell Persistent, but casters with 7th level spell slots probably have better things to do.
Ronan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 4611
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:48 am

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Ronan »

hollyfant wrote:Mention should be made of the option to make the spell Persistent, but casters with 7th level spell slots probably have better things to do.
Hell no I don't! I'd spend a seventh level spell on that in a heartbeat, unless a situation specifically called for something else. It would save you much more in inter-combat healing, and some on combat-healing too.
User avatar
Brokenbone
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: London, Ontario, Canada

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Brokenbone »

It's funny, extended LV (generally, not NWN only) gets a long discussion at ENworld... check this out:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-ebe ... ified.html

Anyhow, there are a couple of interesting thoughts over there. It seems that yes, "bang for the buck" differences do get noticed, but c'mon, Metamagic feats are feats after all, blowing a feat and a higher level spell slot on something are a fairly big deal. Some discussion over in that thread does go into how you're supposed to interpret the rare "maximum" you'll see in spells here and there, even in light of metamagic. Lots of comparison between the "15 round max" of LV and the idea of never being able to exceed 8 mirror images, even if it was a numerical item you could "empower", but I think that's due to another house rule at ENworld.

...

Anyhow, the role of CLW and all the Cure spells really is "burst" healing, LV and Vigor are kind of slow/steady type deals. Yes, they could be a "bring self out of unconsciousness tool", but do you know what happens to an ignored PC who pops up at 1hp attracting the attention of previously uninterested monsters? They get killed, sometimes. Someone watching their counter go from -6, to -5, to -4 etc. might be watching in horror, knowing in 24 seconds that they will be jumping up in the middle of a melee and likely to go right back down again! Yes, I'm guilty of using a LV scroll in a crawl many months ago where exactly that happened to a guy I'd tried to help. Popped up and two orcs attacked him at once, full dead! I am pretty sure a burning hands or something hit the area not long after that either, so he'd have been dead with or without the LV but hey.

But back to the difference between burst and slow type of healing... bursts are typically "worth" drawing AoOs for, if they're going to be big enough. Tough fight it'd be insane to just drink CLWs, you'll be drinking CSWs, and hoping for a good roll. You'd tend not to be just putting on LVs unless maybe doing that as a prep / insurance policy against a few mild wounds you think you're about to take. I am a big fan of LV for the "guaranteed" output, I do not have an Extend-guy, but armor heavy enough to avoid AoOs might find my PC running around a battle touching different partymates with a wand of LV just with fingers crossed that "well, it's better than nothing, and may instantly stabilize them if they get downed anywhere during the next ten rounds" (wand is only at minimum level, there's no higher variants of LV in toolset).

I suppose if I had the Extend metamagic feat, yeah this'd be a good candidate for a level 2 slot, but there's lots of other good level 2 stuff one can do, without a feat. *shrugs* I never saw it as a make-or-break spell that'd justify picking up Extend asap.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

DMA Staff
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

Ronan wrote:Hell no I don't! I'd spend a seventh level spell on that in a heartbeat, unless a situation specifically called for something else. It would save you much more in inter-combat healing, and some on combat-healing too.
This.

Consider that the "burst healing" at that level (greater restoration) will only fill your hit points up once, while a persistent lesser vigor is 1680 hit points, minus however much time you spend not wounded, and that Regenerate is only good for 60 seconds (but it's a whopper of a sixty-second boost-- though, perhaps of note that the pen-and-paper regenerate doesn't actually provide fast healing at all.)

Though I'm not terribly keen on creating an inconsistent rule; saying that extend spell doubles the duration of spells with durations (except these two over here) makes a ruleset which is already incredibly complex and difficult to grasp even more so.
Ronan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 4611
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:48 am

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Ronan »

FWIW I wasn't trying to say Persistent Spell with lesser vigor is OP. Seventh level spells can also transport the caster and many allies across the entire planet in the blink of an eye, unerringly. They're powerful, and p-spell does take two feat investments.

Plus it can be dispelled.
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

It's an extremely advantageous spell to prepare one or two of.

How obscenely that actually plays out is probably not much an issue for ALFA (or at least isn't currently). We don't have anyone with persistent spell yet, and the most-likely candidate doesn't have vigor or lesser vigor. I'd think that the spell in its normal shape (always healing more than a cure [x] wounds spell, even with max rolls and augment healing, but doing so very slowly) compared with our death system would be the best place to actually talk about use and revision.
t-ice
Dungeon Master
Posts: 2106
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

Yeah Persistent LV can give you a perfect between-battles recovery. But consider the feats and spellslots invested. Then compare that to how much it'll cost to have enough LVs available on scrolls and/or wands for that recovery, and compare that gold amount to supposed wealth levels of PCs who can cast the Persistent LV. A wand of LV is a pittance, and probably covers for more than one persistent LV. And you can do a lot of other neat wands too if you took Craft Wand as opposed to Persistent Spell. Or if you took Craft Wonderous, you can craft a LV per day item, and have a world of other options to use your feat.

I'd say the bottom line is that the persistent LV would be good for persistent grinding, where a trickle of gold lost in healing supplies will eat away at your profit trickle. But for gaming the way the game's supposed to be played against appropriate level encounters it's so not worth it.

But if persistentable (is that a word?) ability is removed from the vigor line of spells as a safeguard against farming and soloing, I doubt anyone would notice much.
User avatar
Brokenbone
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: London, Ontario, Canada

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Brokenbone »

I am not sure what the main thrust of this thread is, at first it was about Extend LV maybe being "too good" a deal. I do not see a lot of benefit in trying to say the Extend Metamagic feat works on everything with a duration... except for some things folks found "too good"? It would add some not-needed complexity to the rules I believe.

I know we've drifted to Persistent Spell stuff, but hey, if we have divine casters of sufficient level running around, if they want 30hp of slow regeneration going on for "challenges appropriate to their level", have at it. At that level I expect horrifying monsters, death magic, massive damage, and lowbie spells for the most part being of limited utility... except maybe for some of the better scaling ones. LV's main drawback is the hard limit of a max 15 rounds, in line with things like CLW being max 1d8+5.

Maybe this is really more a problem focussed on the death / -6 thing. Maybe if a PC is actively regenerating, mobs should remain interested in them. Any time PCs down a troll, how interested do you figure those average-or-higher intelligence adventurers are in continuing to hew, burn, acid-drench the "corpse"? Perhaps most average-or-higher mobs would like a chance to notice (spot? heal? spellcraft?) that the combatant they just sidelined has his wounds sewing themselves up and that it might be a bad idea to let him just keep healing until he rejoins battle. I think we recognize from the -6 related discussions that the -6 "stuff" is pretty generous, the occasional condition in it of say, an orc deciding not to just meander around an unconscious PC waiting for him to stand up is silly. Cooking in a process to say "oh, this guy is actually about to come to" and get aggressive again mightn't be unfair. PCs check the bodies of dead hostiles within 2 second of them hitting the ground, an orc rifling a guy with 20,000gp worth of gear and noticing "oh, he is still breathing and in fact this major headwound is closing" should ICly mean a death-stroke, right?

So yeah. I am not seeing a huge problem with LV or V. If it's a yo-yo that interacts with the death / -6 system, and the death / -6 system is something people want to tinker with, consider the impact of any form of regeneration and what it might mean to change the "minds" of critter AI about whether to be interested in continuing a fight or not.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

DMA Staff
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Ithildur »

Persisted Lessor Vigor is valuable and potentially powerful, but don't Core clerics get stuff like Word of Recall as a lvl 6 spell to escape danger? Using 2 feats and a lvl 7 slot to persist lessor vigor doesn't seem too OP when you consider that (thankfully ALFA clerics can never Divine Metamagic Persist >.>).

The biggest 'abuse' concern seems to be the solo PC that regenerates and is guaranteed comes back up, walk away safely, heal up and return for revenge etc. Solution: remove the 'lose interest in you' response from mobs if it's a solo PC, or at least make it extremely unlikely it'll happen.

The -6 as is currently is generous, although somewhat understandable given the wonkiness that is the realtime nwn2 game engine (I personally don't mind not getting a tech rez for the -6 cap bugging out - didn't always feel that way), but the script that makes mobs lose interest if you're soloing and drop is SUPER generous and doesn't really make sense (being in group is completely different; the mobs should normally lose interest in a dropped PC and focus on the guys that may kill them/are still moving around).
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
t-ice
Dungeon Master
Posts: 2106
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

Ithildur wrote: The biggest 'abuse' concern seems to be the solo PC that regenerates and is guaranteed comes back up, walk away safely, heal up and return for revenge etc.
Not 100% what happens here, since never been in this situation, but wouldn't you expect the mobs to stay on top of the lone recovering PC, and that PC having to survive at least two attacks at 1hp or be knocked right back down? (One immediately as you get back up and the hostile standing on top of you swings, and another as AoO when you try to run away.) Sounds quite unlikely to save you, especially if the monster hit hard enough to down you in the first place.
User avatar
hollyfant
Staff Head on a Pike - Standards
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: the Netherworl... lands! I meant the Netherlands.

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by hollyfant »

Ithildur wrote:Solution: remove the 'lose interest in you' response from mobs if it's a solo PC, or at least make it extremely unlikely it'll happen.
Yes, let's punish the lonely people for being alone. :evil:
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

Though I sympathise with your position, Holly, as I know well how long and hard you've struggled to find a stable group to play in, I think Ith's comment was an attempt to offer a solution that was still in line of ALFA's general policy of "punishing" (or, perhaps more accurately, pointedly not protecting or considering) the solo player. I might even be able to say that we've told people that soloing will get you killed for a decade; it is going to be ground into a lot of thinking as a result, and I doubt it was meant as an attack.

To answer T-eyes, the monster only gains interest again once an AI event is fired; this can happen a good many ways, but your typical scenario would depend very much on the area where it happens, and it's certainly possible for a recovering vigored cleric or druid to get away from a losing fight.
Locked