(Lesser) Vigor

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Brokenbone
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Brokenbone »

While I suggested the idea in the -6 thread too, maybe just "debuff everything" (LV or any spell... EE, PfE, Shield, Entrop Shield, whatever) on hitting the -6 safety net. However, if someone was only knocked to say, -5, then I'd suggest "let things keep on working" like LV.
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

I am far more tempted to just hit regeneration with that one; the actual problematic use case here is "Characters are capable of soloing with far greater efficacy than by design through use of regeneration before high-challenge fights." -- your protection from evil doesn't much help you while you're bleeding on the ground, and if your pal shows up with some sort of healing magic, you're using the system as intended.

It seems the wounds discussion continues as it is.

So, are there any pointed objections to:
-- If a character is damaged badly enough that he or she would, had the ACR not prevented it, have dropped to -10 or fewer hit points and that character had some form of non-permanent fast healing active at the time, that healing shall be stripped and the character deemed stable and recovering by natural means.
-- If a character is damaged badly enough that he or she would drop to negative hit points, but not so badly as to drop to -10 or fewer, the fast healing continues to function as described.

I believe this is a solution that still allows the spell to get reasonable mileage out of it without making (Lesser) Vigor into an Immunity to Risk spell.
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Brokenbone
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Brokenbone »

The above sounds fair... I especially like that even when LV is "stripped", it at least leaves the parting gift of being stabilized, even though maybe you'd have liked a few more HP if time was left on the clock. The "works as advertised" for non-arrested situations also good.
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t-ice
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

Yeah, sounds good to me. Though I do have to wonder in
non-permanent fast healing
what would be permanent fast healings a PC could have? (Assuming that Permanent Spell LV is precisely the primary target here and would be stripped. And any other permanent regenerate effects would be likewise "Immunity from Risk sans a DM present".)
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by AcadiusLost »

To clarify, under the proposed change, what exactly would happen with the hypothetical solo PC having LV up when hitting the -6 floor?

Currently someone who is lucky enough to make the 2 successive 10% checks (slowing bleeding, stabilization/recovery) will start to recover health until they get back up to 1 HP and are able to get back up again. I'm not sure offhand whether "First Aid widget / MW healing kit" heal-check based stabilization actually starts the Natural Healing timer or not, nor whether it happens with single-point magical healing (which also stabilizes automatically).

Seems to me if the natural healing/recovery system automatically kicks in for the hypothetical LV soloist hitting the floor, they still get an essentially guaranteed recovery out of the deal if we allow it to stabilize on the way out.

On the other hand, if we have it stabilize /without/ invoking the natural healing/recovery, we have the uncomfortable case of an unattended perma-helpless corpse, which is a giant recipe for metagaming. Even a paragon of virtuous ALFA-behavior would be guilty of hedging their bets towards later rescue just by logging off.

Basically, when I coded the bleeding/death/recovery system, one of the main objectives was to offer the solo player some resolution of their situation (one way or the other) within a reasonable window of time- you either finish dying or start recovering fairly quickly. Application of external healing or Heal-check based stabilization at least means there is someone else there IC to go get help, or finish healing you back to positives after the combat, etc. If solo LV use stabilizes without offering a path to recovery, we end up in that limbo case which is kind of unreasonable for the player unless a DM is present/available.

So yeah... guess based on this consideration I'd rather see it removed entirely on any trip into negative-land (and have folks get used to it being a slow-heal option for the living and not Death Insurance).

(Alternatively, if it's going to be called kosher for it to serve as Death Insurance, we should probably make the death system invoke recovery, because that's better than the meta-problem of a permastable/unconscious/helpless/unattended/solo PC/lootbag)
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Zelknolf »

t-eyes wrote:what would be permanent fast healings a PC could have?
Currently nothing, but I would write it with the possible case's addition accounted for in the future. Maybe ALFA will change its mind about rings of regeneration at some undetermined point in the distant future. I'd rather not have such a discussion bogged down by bugs we left behind from having not handled the possibility.
AcadiusLost wrote:To clarify, under the proposed change, what exactly would happen with the hypothetical solo PC having LV up when hitting the -6 floor?
Two answers to this:
If we don't go back to the AI, they stay down for about 40 minutes, their buffs wear off, and they get to try to slam down an invis potion upon standing up. I was hoping to rely on the already tested/vetted portions of the system to have the use case result in some resolution.
If we do go back to the AI, the fight continues until the PCs win (in which case, the PC hasn't bled out, thanks to having dropped with regen up, and can be helped by pals) or there are no other PCs to fight and the bad guys have taken a brief breather-- then they shuffle back and kill the PC. Or capture, I guess. Or loot. If I'm going to rewrite the AI, those will certainly be configurable options.
Or I guess highly-unlikely scenario 3, where the AI is updated, but NPCs fight other PCs in a brutal endurance stalemate for 40 minutes, then the downed PC gets back up and says something about being surprised.
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

I would write it with the possible case's addition accounted for in the future.
Neat.
On the other hand, if we have it stabilize /without/ invoking the natural healing/recovery, we have the uncomfortable case of an unattended perma-helpless corpse
Once, long time ago back when I first joined Exodus, I was left in a situation where I had a PC buddy whom I stabilized, but had no healing supplies left to get him up. After some time wondering over the comatose character, whom I stabilized with the kit, a DM managed to log in and resolve the case. (The comatose PC had CLW potions on him, but I couldn't use them. And if he hadn't, ICly my PC would have tried to drag his unconscious ass towards the nearby town, which of course I couldn't without a DM, not unless he died and became a corpse object first.) So I suppose the stable limbo can happen without adding some clause about regeneration, but on the other hand is likely exceedingly rare. So maybe could be worth addressing directly, not only in terms of what do with regenerating, floored PCs?
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by hollyfant »

:?: And what about PCs who are transmuted into a regenerating form, such as Troll or Horned Devil?
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

hollyfant wrote::?: And what about PCs who are transmuted into a regenerating form, such as Troll or Horned Devil?
SRD Polymorph: If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

Dispelling the polymorph upon being floored sounds like the clearest option, no?
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Blindhamsterman »

No... as being floored != slain... unless by floored you mean dropped enough to go below -10?
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

Floored = Being saved from death on the spot by the -6 floor.

I don't think dispelling Vigors etc from people who "legitly" dropped to bleeding is considered, anyway? This does leave a grey area where a PC would be dropped to -7, -8 or -9, but actually only gets to -6. I'd say that should be considered the same as "legitly" dropped to -6 (=same as now), you lucky bastard.
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by Blindhamsterman »

ah. then i agree T-Ice :)
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Re: (Lesser) Vigor

Post by t-ice »

Though possibly the best answer to this could be that "AI targets downed PCs only if there's no still-swinging targets the creature can go after instead". That behavior actually makes sense, doesn't it. Then AI knocking you down and you having no allies around = justified sure death. Though having fast healing after being saved by the safety floor might still be considered too exploity also as part of a group fight, so removing polymorph/regeneration/(SomeOtherSpells?) at being caught by the floor could be good. Simply dispelling all active spells might clear curses as well as buffs, mind you, and why would blanket buffs like mage armor be removed? So just catching the select few exploity spells is probably better than blanket dispel.

The bleeding system could possibly be simplified if you don't have to consider the "hostile mob camping over a disabled PC" scenario. The SRD's whole overly-complex mess that is bleeding/stable/recovering/disabled and clauses about someone helping you or not, might simplify to bleeding(lose 1hp per round)/recovering(heal 1hp per minute(say)). 10% chance to start recovering for every point bled, and the heal check or a point of magical healing starts recovery. You don't have to care that removing the stable status makes lonely recovery quite likely at face value, since the lonely downed PCs gets coup de graced anyway. (And if it's not a monster but a trap etc that downed the lone PC, fair enough that he has a decent recover chance. Gritty doesn't need to be outright cruel.)
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