Mirror Image

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Blindhamsterman
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Mirror Image

Post by Blindhamsterman »

Mirror Image doesn't work at all as in pnp:- This much is known by a lot of people. Ronan and I (and later Causk and I) discussed the fact that Mirror Image in nwn2 is kind of broken....
  • pnp:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm
    basically a wizard gets 1d4 images plus 1 per 3 caster levels (so 1d4+3 at level 9 for example).
    It is then a % chance to see which image an attack is against in combat. with increased chance to hit the wizard as images are destroyed.
    If % misses the wizard an attack is made against an image with an AC of 10 + size and dex mods.

    nwn2:
    http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Mirror_Image
    basically a wizard gets 2 plus 1 per 3 caster levels (max ac gained is 7 at CL 15) as additional AC.
    each time the wizard is attacked the AB of the attacker is compared to the base AC of the wizard, if it beats the base ac, but not the mirror imaged AC, an image is destroyed and mirror imaged AC is reduced by 1 (or 2 when the final image is destroyed). If the attack misses the base AC, then no change to mirror imaged AC, if it beats the mirror imaged AC, it hits the wizard as normal. With Mirror Image, if a roll of 20 would still not beat the mirror imaged AC, then it destroys an image, missing the wizard anyway. A double 20 always hits the wizard.

Now, clearly these spells have similarities, but also some rather glaring differences. Question is, can Mirror image be made to be more like pnp?

As it stands, NWN2 Mirror Image is actually WORSE for low AC wizards than it is in pnp. While it's also arguably better for high AC wizards (be that through items, spells, armour or whatever).

example. a level 9 wizard with improved mage armour, ring +2, spider skin and 14 dex has an ac of 24.
  • in pnp they on average have 5 images. so each attack against them has only a 20% chance of hitting them, and still have to beat their AC if they do hit. Though AC12 images will vanish quite quickly, the fact there is a flat 80% chance that the attack wont be aimed at the wizard in the first place means it's very helpful against tough enemies. (note that a level 9 fighter with 2 attacks would waste their second attack as the image vanishes)

    in nwn that mage now has an AC of 29. But every attack will be targetting the mage. The extra AC is impressive on paper, however the same level 9 fighter as above has an AB of 14 (9 + 3 strength, +1 sword and WF - which is fairly conservative for a level 9 fighter) So will hit the mage with 1/4 attacks, and destroy an image with 1/4 attacks, missing with half (note that in this case both attacks get rolled though the second attack will at best only destroy an image on the first round)
Which one of the above is more powerful? Against low level enemies, clearly the nwn2 implementation is far far better. Against higher level things, I personally would love the pnp implementation. But the above is with a pretty low AC Mage example (at level 9, I know plenty of mages that walk around with much higher)

Same example, but now the mage has dex 18 and cast shield for an AC of 31 before mirror image.
  • The Mage in pnp is no different, though with an AC of 30, the fighter will only ever hit on his fist attack if he manages to score that 20% to hit chance. Basically the end result is much the same as the previous example however.

    The Mage casts Mirror image and now has an AC of effectively 35 in nwn2, they're now only going to get hit by special monsters with high AB (such as giants) extremely well made PCs (barbarians with high strength spring to mind) or touch attacks (which are fairly rare). Our fighter of the last example however, can only ever hit the mage on a double 20. the best he can hope for otherwise is to destroy the images quickly.
Clearly the nwn2 example just got a lot better. Though of course, against the enemies listed as being able to beat it, the pnp version is much more survivable.

Question is, can we create something to make mirror image work more like pnp, or do we just ignore that it's better in many situations (but not all) as we have it? I'd think fixing it would be good, as it's used by PCs and NPCs alike, but the tech team are stretched as it is so I don't know?

The only suggestion I can think of, would be to have Mirror Image provide concealment that scales based on caster level for the duration. If the attack misses due to concealment the concealment would be decreased to show an image was used up? I'm not sure if thats doable though.



Note: This spell is a spell I use in game regularly, infact, it's a spell that most wizard PCs use fairly regularly as it protects them from damage.
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Ithildur
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Re: Mirror Image

Post by Ithildur »

Which one of the above is more powerful? Against low level enemies, clearly the nwn2 implementation is far far better. Against higher level things, I personally would love the pnp implementation. But the above is with a pretty low AC Mage example (at level 9, I know plenty of mages that walk around with much higher)
That imo is a big factor to take into consideration regarding whether this fix is a priority (I'm more selective these days about how much energy we devote to bringing things in line with PnP btw); life for ALFA low lvls is, relatively speaking, extremely dangerous already. I would not want to make life harder for lowbie wizzies than it already is.

Besides, vs higher lvl mobs, Mirror image isn't as much a lifesaver no matter what; monsters have much more interesting and deadly things to do to you than try to hit you with weapons! :D It's why high AC becomes less valuable at high lvls, unless your DM is rather unimaginative. Heck, I've seen terrain and weather kill more people than monsters that swing weapons/claws at things.

One thing that would be nice if it could be fixed is this: the way MI is implemented in NWN2, iirc a lot of spells, spell like abilities, etc which require attack rolls ignore the images and target you with 100% accuracy, which isn't correct. But my memory may be failing me here (it's been a while since I had anyone in NWN2 with access to Mirror Image).
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