Free hand demanded by spellhook?

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t-ice
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Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

This is an aside that came to mind from the Combat Expertise thread:

If there is a spellhook script that is run before casting, could we make it work so that the proper free hand is demanded of the caster? In other words, if both hand slots are equipped, unequip weapon before casting.

This would have the added effect of dropping CE if the caster had both hands filled, ie likely was wearing a shield. Would at least make clerics not be able to cast in middle of combat with CE _and_ shields on. And make it appropriately harder for shielded clerics casting while in melee combat, even if equipping the weapon back is a "action at click-speed".
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Blindhamsterman
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Blindhamsterman »

no, because there is no such requirement in pnp, wizards dont use their book to cast, they use their book to study, the spells are all precast in their head, the actual idea is they basically just say the completion word for the spells - this is also why wizards dont get many spells/day.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ansha »

Spellhook, not spellbook. Spells with somatic components require at least one free hand to cast. However, I don't have any idea whether that's even close to feasible, since there are a number of verbal-only spells that would have to be differentiated from the ones that also require somatic components.

You'd also have to take into account the Still Spell metamagic feat, as applied to spells with somatic components.
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t-ice
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

It seems the majority of spells have verbal and somatic components.

At least some check for somatic components should be there, for arcane spell failure, and still spell does affect that.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Blindhamsterman »

hmm, believe verbal is already covered (as being made silent means you cant cast spells that are not also silent)

I suppose adding a check to spellhook for one hand or the other being free to be able to cast spells would be closer to pnp. The spells shouldnt just fizzle, but a message should be given than you need a hand free. (it should be noted, mages/sorcerers almost never have an issue with this. it's only going to hurt rangers, paladins, clerics etc)
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Thread A: hey guys stop rapidly clicking buttons or cycling things or pulling weapons and shields up and down in an instant, in most situations.

Thread B: hey guys start rapidly clicking buttons and cycling things and pulling weapons and shields up and down in an instant, if casting.

Wasn't there some buzz-cut lady of the 90s, Susan something, who'd always be yelling about "Stop the Insanity?" Need her help here and in several other threads!
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t-ice
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

Blindhamsterman wrote: I suppose adding a check to spellhook for one hand or the other being free to be able to cast spells would be closer to pnp. The spells shouldnt just fizzle, but a message should be given than you need a hand free.
I proposed automatically unequip the weapon if casting both hands taken, as opposed to demanding the player click this herself. Less click-fest, but same effect.
hey guys start rapidly clicking buttons and cycling things and pulling weapons and shields up and down in an instant, if casting.
No-one said you'd have to click your weapon back to your hand instantly. Just like any equip action, you can take the appropriate time (a move action, so around half a round, so 3secs or so?). Beside, it won't be shields, only the weapon hand would be forced free if neither elsewise is.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Empty handed PCs are just a world of AoOs waiting to happen.

Check this out though.... classic wizard with Staff. Staff takes two hands. If you're casting... well... maybe you're only using it with one hand. And by using, I mean holding onto it, crook of an elbow or whatever and not swinging it, because if you were swinging it, you wouldn't be casting a spell.

Same goes for Druid with spear, Cleric with 2H warmace, Ranger with two daggers out, whatever. If you're not attacking with it, due to being busy casting a spell, so what if it's "represented" in your hands, it's not in use.

Shields though are where I think that argument breaks down somewhat. It's passive AC, you're always "using" it.

I don't think messing with this topic is a good path to go down, we also lack things like "buckler" (less than light shield type of thing) or "shielded casting" (a feat from Races of Stone, think it has a Combat Cast and Conc 5 prereq) to get over the issue, if for some reason there was great appetite to enforce some kind of "no shields if it's a known somatic needing spell" rule, I do not know what brought on the discussion.

Again though, if you are casting, you are NOT busy attacking with a weapon, so who cares if one is represented in hand? I can see a beef with shields but I'd really have to be thinking hard of "things to have beefs about."
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Blindhamsterman »

Brokenbone probably speaks words of wisdom *nod*
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Zelknolf »

Also, hot-swapping weapons during fights = bugs galore. We don't want to implement this, as the cure will be worse than the disease.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

Kayden's PrC pack has a few simple lines in a script in place that smack casters with 100% spell failure for the duration of the round that they equip an item such as a shield (he also extended it to weapons and unequipping as well as equipping which is erroneous); that should discourage hotswapping shield/free hand for casting at least some.

Putting 100% arcane spell failure on all shields would take care of arcanes, but they're not the ones that usually take advantage of this free perk, it's divine casters... Putting 100% general spell failure (as opposed to arcane spell failure) probably wouldn't work since Stilled spells and non somatic spells can be cast with both hands full, and I'd assume general spell failure doesn't account for these unlike ASF.

As for staffs and two handed weapons, per RAW it's a free action to remove your off hand from a two handed weapon/put it back, so that's why wizards with staves or druids using longspears or paladins using greatswords are fine; they simply take the off hand off of the weapon as a free action and cast, and put it back on the weapon also as a free action.

Bottom line, I don't think this is unfixable. The question is whether this is a priority and whether ALFA's shieldy cleric/paladin/ranger/druid etc players would accept this change to confirm closer to RAW; my guess is at least some will be rather quick to use the 'but this isn't pnp' or 'don't fix it if it ain't majorly broke' line of argument in order to not lose the free perk.

On the other hand, the cleric could drop their weapon and keep their shield, and get a free hand that way for casting per RAW. Dropping is a free action and no AOOs, so that's fine; the catch is that effectively in NWN2 they get to pick up the weapon and attack as normal the next round for free without provoking an AOO (picking up a weapon provokes), and they also might get to make AOOs even though they're supposed to be unarmed. End result is they're still getting a freebie, but maybe thinking of it this way is more acceptable. i.e. NWN2 Clerics get to avoid AOOs for free/get to make AOO for free vs be able to cast at all when they shouldn't be able to cast.

NWN2 doesn't follow RAW when it comes to AOOs in countless situations (Withdraw action and Combat Reflexes are two HUGE departures off the top of my head), so maybe chalk it up to that and let it pass.
Last edited by Ithildur on Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Add bucklers that are immune to that script and a "5 foot step" power to back off mobs and avoid the (now unshielded) AoO to go with it and we're good? Kidding.

I do not have strong feelings about it.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Zelknolf »

Didn't this thread die seven months ago?


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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ronan »

I've found ignoring dates and posting on topics of any age makes for very well-organized forums (and loooong threads). Short, recent threads seem easier to follow but thats mostly because they hide so much prior discussion.

Its definitely doable. The question is if its doable well. I brought it up pre-NWN2 as a way to nerf clerics and druids everyone saw as being so OP in NWN1. Not sure there's a will to allow it, however?

One problem was dropping a weapon in combat makes the toon unarmed, which means they provoke AoOs any round they aren't casting. Then they have to try to find the weapon and pick it up in the NWN2 engine - no fun. A forced unequip would probably be better, but then you have to make sure you keep spells queued up or your PC starts punching away and drawing AoOs. And when can you equip again? OnCombatRoundEnd? There's no way to communicate this to the player, or let him queue the action up for when it'll be possible. Everything becomes more twitch-based, not a good thing for people with connections like Ith!

As for bucklers, I'd just assume any light shield = a buckler in terms of these mechanics. I'm not sure there's a stat difference in 3.5 anyhow, other than the light shield getting a bash attack bucklers don't get (and we don't have)?

There might be a good way to encourage casters to keep a hand free in combat where they're casting somatic spells, but I can't think of it right now.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Zelknolf »

There's also the bugs inherent in swapping the contents of your hands during combat-- if we tell people that it's OK (or, worse, required), they'll actually end up gaining power in the form of free attacks at max base attack bonus.
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