Free hand demanded by spellhook?

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Ithildur
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

[duplicate post deleted... who said I've a bad connection? >.>]
Last edited by Ithildur on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

Forceunequip was more what I had in mind actually Ronan, not force weapondrop ala disarm; picking up a weapon is definitely more difficult in realtime (though I'm pretty sure it doesn't provoke aoo's in NWN2).

Ending up accidentally punching with fist briefly and drawing an AOO doesn't seem too undesirable a result though, if you consider that you'd be eating AOOs in PnP for picking up the dropped weapon/shield.

I'm not going to lose sleep over this either way, but the way I see it this isn't that different than CE for warlocks/casters. You simply cannot cast spells (unless they lack somatic component/are stilled) with a big shield strapped on in one arm and a weapon in the other per RAW, just as CE isn't supposed to be available while using eldritch blasts/casting spells per RAW. If we're going after barring CE for warlocks and casters it seems consistent to fix this as well.

Casters with shields AND CE will of course cry foul the hardest... But that's how it's supposed to work per the rules, and intuitively I think it makes sense - picture someone holding a staff in one hand and using a free hand/arm to make the intricate gestures associated with spellcasting, then picture the guy next to him doing that with a big heavy plank of wood/metal strapped to that arm; somewhat amusing.

This is why my personal preference is to not RP ftr/mages using shields regularly even if they are not bladesingers; it just seems off intuitively imo and it's not allowed in PnP (without buying a feat from a splatbook at least), though of course, mithral shield EKs are dime a dozen in vanilla NWN2.

Again, not going to lose sleep over this, but if we're going after CE to make it (not) work correctly for casters, may as well consider this as well.
Last edited by Ithildur on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Zelknolf »

I don't see any discussion of solving the bugs inherent in swapping the contents of the right hand slot while actively targeting an opponent. If that exists, please bring it forward. If not, best to let this die as before-- I won't implement a restriction that actually makes affected parties more powerful.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ronan »

Why not apply a AB penalty on certain OnEquip events, which is stripped OnCombatRoundEnd? It takes time to change weapons anyhow. Losing a round of offense while swapping doesn't sound unreasonable (not sure how it works in pnp as I've never played it).

I'm a lot newer to NWN2 than you guys and not familiar with the bug you're talking about, though.

I'm not really itching to implement somatic spells requiring a hand, but it seems do-able in some form. You could leave the weapon equipped, but have the spellhook apply a massive AB penalty for X seconds after the spell, representing them doing something with their weapon (or off-hand weapon, in the case of dual-wielders).
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Zelknolf »

Eh... if you went attack penalty, you'd penalize the wrong attack-- which would be better than forcing a hot-swap of the equip slot (free swipe n' all), but less than ideal. Unless we can demonstrate some fundamental need for the sort-- rather than a misguided attempt to bring clerics closer to canon (instead of, say, offering to actually help with cleric domains?)-- or a reliable way to blast the extra attacks on the round following a hands-full spellcasting (as it's a move-equivalent to get a weapon back out, and a move-equivalent before to put it away for easy access later-- herego sheathe-cast-draw leaves only a standard action, not a full one).

I wouldn't try to produce the visual-- I really think we need to keep the items in their equipment slots as much as possible during fights.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

Oooo... my thread got necromancied ... excellent :twisted:

Since we seem to be brainstorming...

I like Ronan's idea of AB penalty for 6 secs on hot-swap, though it directly has less to do with the topic at hand, rather addressing the larger scope of freebie hot-swaps for twitchy-fingers hc-gamers. If you apply that AB penatly, you should also apply a no-spellcasting for the same period. Maybe one can make Spellhook just abort all spellcast attempts for this time, without losing slots? It would need a message in the "mechanics" message window: "Equipping...." And after 6 secs: "Equipping done". Or somesuch. (Possibly reduce to the time to 3 seconds as opposed to 6)

In the same vein, rather than forcing an unequip of heavy shields, couldn't you impose an AC(shield) penalty that counters the AC bonus given by the shield for 6 seconds, if a spell with a somatic component is cast while both hands are occupied? It isn't perfect, but would take us to the right direction, hopefully without breaking nwn2. Would make it worthwhile for clerics to consider light shields, as they should.

Cons are that two-weapon fighting wouldn't be addressed, but PGing with a twf caster is much harder than a cleric tank. You already lose most of the benefit of wielding your weapon(s) when casting, since you use your action to cast as opposed to attack.

((Or, you know, you could just impose a blanket -1 AC to all clerics :P ))
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

I'm sure you realize this doesn't affect just clerics Zelk; it's any caster divine or arcane that regularly uses a shield while casting (though obviously it'll affect certain kinds of clerics and druids more commonly in ALFA; I'm not aware of any interest in bards or ftr/mage types looking for the same benefit with mithral shields here).

It's in the same line of thought as removing the ability to use Combat Expertise while casting/eldritch blasting; NWN2 allows it sure, but it's not canon/allowed in PnP and essentially a free boost to AC (potentially +5, +6 ac gain for a ftr/cleric with an enchanted Tower Shield which is way more than CE) that really shouldn't be there, just like the CE while casting thing. If we're fixing the latter, it seems consistent to discuss possibility of fixing the other as well at some point.

Aesthetically/stylistically, I think casting with CE isn't nearly as bad as casting with a big shield strapped on/weapon in other hand, but that's my personal opinion; what's not personal opinion is that both are illegal per canon.

Two weapon fighting is something that'd be affected by this as well, good catch (although not nearly as many dual wielding casters around as shield wielding casters in ALFA). Not sure what the best solution is atm, but [edit, oops, too early in the morning] worth considering.

Definitely would've made life a tad harder for Hignar types with Tower Shields in ALFA1, which I'm sure would've made some folks happy. :D
Last edited by Ithildur on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Hands are needed for more than just casting.

How does a fellow with a heavy or tower shield drink a potion? Yes, this includes fighters who guzzle them all the time.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

It's not an issue of someone's hands being completely useless BB. :) It's an issue of having to have at least one hand/arm free for the intricate movements associated with spellcasting, per rules clearly and specificly laid out in the PHB. The rules don't stop you from grabbing something even with a shield strapped on/weapon or item in other hand; it specifically forbids you from casting most spells under those circumstances.

You might be surprised at the amount of things RAW allows you to do with a shield, including undoing the strap and dropping it in a couple of seconds (move action or even free action). However spellcasting with other hand full too is clearly spelled out as not one of them.

Stylistically, the shield is strapped to their forearm, I can see being able to reach for an item with the hand (although a finicky DM might houserule that they have to drop the shield or such; dual wielders might have a harder time, though the offhand weapon is usually small).

One can also argue 'well my caster is trained in Expertly being defensive during Combat while casting and therefore should gain an AC bonus while casting using a feat I paid for' and such, but we're apparently not buying that, because canon rules clearly say 'No'.
Last edited by Ithildur on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

Ithildur wrote: I'm not aware of any interest in bards or ftr/mage types looking for the same benefit with mithral shields here
Availability of mithral shields isn't exactly something you can reliably base a build on at ALFA. Which is good. And unless you use a light shield, which leaves a hand free, you would take a 5% ASF anyway, which is probably more than people will accept, since that has the nasty habit of kicking in at just that critical point.
SRD wrote:Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm
Doesn't say anything about needing a free hand for potions. Persumably it's simple enough to quaff a potion that you don't need to drop/sheat a weapon while you use that hand to drink. Drinking is distracting enough to cause a AoO, though. Also PCs having the option to drink potions doesn't unbalance character classes by creating exploits for the classes that are already powerhouses.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

Yeah, I figured mithral being fairly rare/expensive is at least part of the reason shield using arcanes are rare currently. It is good; I'd cringe a bit at the thought of more people casting away with shield and weapon in hand (at least without Still Spell - a more common feat selection for arcanes for obvious reasons).

Obviously we're not going to fix everything in the game to match RAW exactly, but going after CE/casting/blasting combo seems to put forth the notion that 'we don't want caster/blaster types to artificially enjoy AC boosts they're not supposed to have while casting per canon'; if that is the case, then it makes sense to consider disallowing shield/weapon combo while casting.

For similar reasons we fixed:

-stacking of Shield spell ac bonus and physical shields
-nerfed Mage Armor/IMA to match pnp (nerfs that I pointed out were needed btw, this isn't some agenda to gimp certain people or to 'get revenge' for Mage Armor being fixed and such :D )

These were things that needed fixing because NWN2 clearly failed to match canon rules and the results could become unbalanced boosts to AC that should not be there. The current project is fixing CE/casting/blasting; it would only seem consistent and logical to look at shieldy casting at some point.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Ithildur wrote:<SNIP>
One can also argue 'well my caster is trained in Expertly being defensive during Combat while casting and therefore should gain an AC bonus while casting using a feat I paid for' and such, but we're apparently not buying that, because canon rules clearly say 'No'.
Shielded Casting
( Races of Stone, p. 144)

[General]

You are skilled at covering yourself with your shield when casting spells in combat.

Prerequisite: Combat Casting , Concentration 5 ranks, Shield Proficiency,

Benefit: As long as you have a light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield ready, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for casting spells in combat.


***

It's odd though that the focus here is on "no AoOs", rather than the apparent concern over free hands (or arms) as related to Somatic components of spells. It is almost as if the feat assumes people do not put down shields to cast.

Bucklers and light shields are just strapped on. Heavy and tower are both strapped, and held in hand. If they are ALWAYS with a hand on a grip, I really do not see how you'd drink a potion at the same time, but I think it'd be the most micromanagey DM who cackles and says "no, you must put down your shield if you want to drink muhahaha."

*shrugs*
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

[edited after remembering more clearly]
Funny you should bring up Races of Stone, I was going to mention that book; it's heavily drawn from in a pbp campaign run by Mshady I've play in. iirc, dwarven clerics in his game have this: Shield, Gauntlet/Gauntlet Shield, from that book:

"A favorite of divine spellcasters this shield is a heavy steel shield built with a special bracing gauntlet. The special gauntlet allows you to carry other items in your shield hand (such as material spell components), although you cannot use weapons with it. The shield hand is likewise free to perform somatic spell components"

So in fact, the book assumes nothing of the sort; you have to buy a special shield to cast somatic spells while wearing the shield/having main hand occupied. Granted, it's just 30-43gp more for such a shield if your DM allows this splatbook (perhaps this incredibly cheap item was put into the splatbook due to the influence of CRPGs where now people expect to be able to cast while ignoring core mechanics).

I suppose we can say we're using Races of stone and everyone gets a free Gauntlet Shield? Chalk it up to 'eh, there's a 50gp item out there somewhere in a splatbook (al beit one of the more questionable splatbooks out there) that allows you to ignore the rule', effectively make every heavy shield a Gauntlet Shield and extend the benefits to tower shields? It's far from an elegant 'solution' nor is it canon, but definitely the most time/effort/energy saving. Or perhaps simply introducing expensive heavy shields into the game named 'Gauntlet Shield', tweak the description, put in RP notes would be more 'canonical' and flavorful.



Certainly agree, it'd be rather rare and over the top for a DM to make up a houserule that says you can't drink a potion without dropping the shield.
Last edited by Ithildur on Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Maybe it's assumed by that feat that you've got your shield up casting, but your weapon out of hand. The weapon hand might be the free hand. It sure isn't attacking anyone while you're casting, right? Sure, a sword might be represented there, but it isn't stabbing anyone, it may as well either be on the ground or on your belt. We swap weapons at a keystroke after all.

Put in a system requiring an empty hand, and people with good twitch skills may not be happy about it, but will accommodate by clicking their "mace" slot so their hand is empty, casting, then reclicking mace so it's back in hand. No? An unused weapon when you aren't intending on using it, is no detriment. Keep your shield up for the AC, for those AoOs your casting may provoke, particularly at low levels when Defensive Casting is a non-guaranteed proposition.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

Any fix for tanked-up handless casting would pretty much need to address the free hotswap issue. Otherwise it's swap-cast-swap. To that a 3 sec period after swap where you have big AB hit, and spellhook causing an always fail, should be a close enough. If possible technically, that is. Would be a good for other things as well, like hot-swapping use-when-equipped items, eg those abiquitous rings of CLW / day.

And why not allow casting all tanked up, but strip away shield AC for a turn if you did so. Preferably for the 6secs casting itself takes. (You lose your ability to effectively use your shield because you use that hand for materials/focus/somatics.) It's not 100% turn-wise rules, but takes to the right direction (clerics use light shields, not tower shields) without being a horrible tech quaqmire. Hopefully
It's odd though that the focus here is on "no AoOs", rather than the apparent concern over free hands (or arms) as related to Somatic components of spells. It is almost as if the feat assumes people do not put down shields to cast.
I read it as assuming they put away their weapons to cast instead, having a shield and an empty hand. Sheat/draw or drop/pick up cycle is appropriately foolish in melee. But using spells as opposed to weapons in melee (touch attacks or healing) seems to be what this aims at. Problem with no weapons in NWN2, as I understood, is that the engine is stupid enough to force you to counterattack unarmed, suicidially sucking in AoOs unless you have imp unarmed fighting. So swapping weapon away has issues.
Last edited by t-ice on Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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