Free hand demanded by spellhook?

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Ithildur
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Ithildur »

The point wasn't necessarily to punish clerics (or druids) so much as to bring some consistency per RAW as well as eliminate something that intuitively feels/looks silly (to me; others might not find the thought of someone waving a big piece of metal around while casting silly - particularly looked hilarious when someone with a greatsword in NWN1 cast but that's the game engine's fault since it's not their weapon hand they'd be waving around per the rules).

I also think it wouldn't be fair to hit say Persephone or Keren, the two clerics I'm most familiar with in ALFA, with being forced to lose their shield when these two in a pnp game would more likely drop or sheath their weapons, as neither are big bashing melee types (Keren wouldn't be able to use his deity's favored weapon with a non buckler anyway in pnp). It should be an option to put away/drop one or the other somehow.

Expecting ALFAns to put away shield or weapon for a full round+ on their own would be similar to expecting folks to turn off CE when casting or eldritch blasting, would it not? Problem is it's reasonable in theory, but in practice hard to catch, easy to forget during heat of combat, easy to mistime, apparently a potential buggy exploit in the case of weapon swap, etc. Regardless in the case of CE casting, doing this is currently considered an exploit I believe (most likely because of the notoriety of CE Warlocks)? Isn't casting with both hands full and getting the benefit of a shield similar to this in effect? Perhaps somewhat less of an impact if we assume putting away/drop/retrieve of weapon by a Perse/Keren type and disregard potential AOOs made against them (and one made by them)... (I'd even say assume 5 foot step to help avoid AOOs by a smart PC but there's 1. enemies with reach (not at all uncommon) and 2. NWN2 simply doesn't have this so probably best not to assume this; Maeredhel might be alive if our game took 5 foot step into consideration)

Unless we go with Gauntlet shields for everyone! (Minsc voice) ...which I do agree with T Ice is a bit iffy especially given the somewhat OP splatbook that the item comes from. I also agree with Ronan that having more variety is good.

Again, not something I'd lose sleep over (but then I'm not all that ruffled by CE Warlocks either); it just seemed obviously consistent to address this if CE casting and other casting mechanics definitely are tweaked.
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kid
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by kid »

Ithildur wrote: (Keren wouldn't be able to use his deity's favored weapon with a non buckler anyway in pnp)
Short spear is a light one handed weapon... same as mace and club in SRD, or so I thought. I should use a light Buckler? (or lets say light shield as that what we have)
if so i'd gladly do so.

As for all the rest... hmm... i'm not sure what you suggest we can do.
Seems that tech wise the sulotion is difficult. (same as CE which was never solved, we have 3 high level casters with CE which we trust not to abuse)

And if a tech solution wont happen... can the players do anything (which is not silly) to avoide the problem?

Dropping shield or weapon seems impossible... what other way out is there?
I'd go for anytihng as long as the new solution fis not worse than the original problem.

which is basicly... enemies near you might get a AoO when you drop/retrive weapon, right? (that is if there are more then 1 and you can't back away from all of thme.)
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Brokenbone
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

I still figure "if I am not actually attacking with a weapon, but I am getting the benefit of shield AC", that the spellcasting is being done with the weapon-hand.

Just like if I use a wand, potion, or scroll, all of which take "zero hands," as it currently stands in ALFA.

Yes, I've got a caster, virtually always with axe and heavy or tower shield... though I can't think of the last time of actually casting a spell in combat. Sure, plenty of running around with a wand to tap on allies, but I do not think I will win "PnP conformity awards" if I click my axe icon, run around and heal heal heal, then click the axe again, particularly if I wasn't precisely using an axe while running around healing folks.

The good old "thrill" of real time combat also causes some pretty dramatic mistakes from time to time with even forgetting what's in your PC's hands... not meant to poke too much fun at good old Merrin (Regas's PC), but in a pretty nasty plot battle of a couple weeks ago, there's him running around the battle, winging off spells or wand charges or whatever, but forgetting to draw his weapon for the entire fight, running around like a maniac. I think he may have ineffectually been "punching" the high level rogue who Rhaggot was toe to toe with at the end, after the ogre barbarians were all dead. No, this isn't about remembering to have a shield up or not, just an illustration that real time combat leads, occasionally, to mismanagement of what the heck happens to be in your hand slots.
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t-ice
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

Unless we go with Gauntlet shields for everyone!
Gauntlet tower shields, that is. An effective +1 for a heavy shield ability that leaves a hand free to cast with would of course be just as well ;)
we have 3 high level casters with CE which we trust not to abuse
Avoiding the abuse would surely be easier if under the appropriate cicumstance the spellhook would say that you can't cast and aborts. Yes this could be largely circumvented by a flurry of quickbar clicks, but at least that would make the (ab)use far more clear and glaring for self-regulation.

Or perhaps the spellhook wouldn't abort but simply reports an abuse to player and logs. Would give us in idea of just how effective the "please don't abuse" is. I have a nagging feeling this self-policing works fine until PCs get to the tough fights that matter. Then "accidents" start to abound. And that many players don't read the forums enough to know it's an abuse. Which is certainly understandable given the kind of babble and rants that go down here :P

Taking some of the nwn2-enhanced power away from the tank cleric with a tower shield and CE, and adding in a measure of the flexibility a light shield should bring (spells/scrolls/wands) would be all good as I see it. Improving overall balance by taking away "undeserved" nwn2 benefits from the powerhouses, and giving incentive for kit variability. (Though that effective +1 ability to have a free hand with a heavy shield has the visual benefit that most shield models with god's emblems are heavy shields.)
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Brokenbone
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Brokenbone »

Notice how shields have an Arcane Spell Failure percentage (SRD and NWN)?

It is almost like they expect the occasional Arcane caster to carry one! And even have it "up" while casting.

Doesn't necessarily mean a weapon is in their other hand though.
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t-ice
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by t-ice »

Mithral light shields don't have ASF, though, and even normal light shields have very low ASF. It's almost as if casters are expected to carry light shields!
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kid
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by kid »

Ok... right. I forgot about potions, and wands, etc...
I shall now meh over this subject and go about my business.
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Re: Free hand demanded by spellhook?

Post by Zelknolf »

And this has gotten ridiculous.

A reminder to read the stickies which define technical forums before posting.

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