Katanas

Scripted ALFA systems & related tech discussions (ACR)

Moderators: ALFA Administrators, Staff - Technical

User avatar
mogonk
Dire Badger
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 am

Katanas

Post by mogonk »

Something odd I noticed:

Despite the fact that katanas function as bastard swords, EWP is still required in order to use a katana. Shouldn't one be able to use a katana 2-handed as a martial weapon? Similarly, one cannot select the feat Weapon Focus (katana) without taking EWP, because one is not considered to be proficient in it.

This seems to violate PnP rules, so I'm not sure if it's an oversight or intentional. I appreciate any insight into this, as I need to know the status of this designation before I create my new character.
SwordSaintMusashi
Mook
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:49 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Katanas

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

I know ALFA has the bastard sword as a two handed weapon if you have martial weapon proficiency. The problem, I believe, is that the prereq for weapon focus: bastard sword and katana require the real proficiency, which you can only get with the Exotic feat. I would like to see katanas useable two handed as a martial weapon, though.
Current PCs:
Zova Earth Breaker, Monk of Rasheman
Alyra Ashedown, Knight Commander of Silverymoon
User avatar
mogonk
Dire Badger
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 am

Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

SwordSaintMusashi wrote:The problem, I believe, is that the prereq for weapon focus: bastard sword and katana require the real proficiency, which you can only get with the Exotic feat.
Actually, you can take WF (bastard sword) without EWP, which is as it should be.
SwordSaintMusashi wrote:I would like to see katanas useable two handed as a martial weapon, though.
As would I. Basically, I have two questions, one of which is conditional on the answer to the first:

1. Is it intentional that you need EWP to use a katana, and if so, why?

2. If it isn't intentional, and in the future this is fixed, will I be allowed to trade in EWP for another feat, since I shouldn't have had to take it in the first place?
User avatar
AcadiusLost
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5061
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:38 am
Location: Montara, CA [GMT -8]
Contact:

Re: Katanas

Post by AcadiusLost »

As far as I know, bastard swords are the only PnP weapon that uses your proficiency list to decide whether it's one-handed or not. If I overlooked similar text in the PHB 3.5E regarding katanas, we can broaden our special scripts, 2DA and TLK mods to include katanas as well.

Intuitively though, the hand-and-a-half sword was a pretty standard european type sword; while the katana falls squarely into the "oooh, ninjas!" cultural strangeness that non-central faerun entails. Makes sense for it to require exotic to me.
User avatar
mogonk
Dire Badger
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 am

Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

I have a few issues with that reasoning.

1. EWP as a game mechanic works to make certain weapons with special abilities off-limits to most characters. i.e., a spiked chain can do things no other weapon can do, a bastard sword does more damage than other one handed weapons, and so on. A katana used 2 handed is simply a crappy greatsword, so there's no balance reason not to allow it.

2. In terms of Katanas being "exotic" flavor-wise, I'd say that varies a great deal based on perspective. There are multiple nations that use katanas as their primary weapon. In Wa, for example, katanas are virtually the only sword that exists. Are we to assume that every lvl 1 NPC-classed warrior has taken EWP as a feat? Or that everyone who comes from that region gets a bonus feat?

Furthermore, weapons are not classed as exotic based on flavor, they are classed based on complexity of use and the need for special training. A Nodachi (a very large katana) does not exist in NWN, but it does exist in D&D. It's a martial weapon, identical in every way to a greatsword. If you take away the justification of "it's too large to be used one-handed", a katana is an extremely straightforward weapon, nothing like a spiked chain or orc double axe.

3. Treating the katana as distinct from the bastard sword is an idea that has no support in any D&D sourcebook from 3.0 onward. I would like to direct you to pg. 110 of the 3.5 PHB, which is the only place in the entire volume in which the katana is mentioned. It says, and I quote "A katana (samurai sword), for example, is not on the weapon list, but you could equip your character with a katana and just treat it like a masterwork bastard sword."

The 3.5 Forgotten Realms sourcebook does not cover Kara-Tur, for unexplained reasons, as Kara-Tur is canonically part of Abeir-Toril. It also does not mention katanas. However, Kara-Tur originated in the Oriental Adventures sourcebook, the most recent edition of which has this to say about katanas: "The katana is a masterwork bastard sword". It goes on to say "A Medium-size character
can use a katana two-handed as a martial weapon". (pg. 71)

That seems fairly explicit to me. It is clearly the intent of the writers that katanas and bastard swords be equivalent under the rules. Now, it's true that OA is not a core sourcebook. But since it is the only sourcebook which features katanas, and because it deals with katanas in a manner completely consistent with what little the PHB does say about them, I think it should be considered applicable here.
User avatar
oldgrayrogue
Retired
Posts: 3284
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Katanas

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Where were you when my last PC burned a feat on EW only to use his Katana two handed! :mad:
User avatar
Blindhamsterman
Haste Bear
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
Location: GMT

Re: Katanas

Post by Blindhamsterman »

The DMG also states that Katanas are treated as Masterworked Bastard swords in all ways. (infact, in PNP EWP Bastard Sword is used for Katana)
User avatar
mogonk
Dire Badger
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 am

Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

Blindhamsterman wrote:The DMG also states that Katanas are treated as Masterworked Bastard swords in all ways. (infact, in PNP EWP Bastard Sword is used for Katana)
You are correct sir, I forgot that the DMG has that. If anybody wants to reference it, it's on pg. 144 of the 3.5 ed Dungeon Master's Guide.

"While functionally a bastard sword, this sword is the most masterfully made nonmagical weapon in existence....A Medium creature can use a katana two-handed as a martial weapon"
SwordSaintMusashi
Mook
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:49 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Katanas

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

mogonk wrote:I have a few issues with that reasoning.

1. EWP as a game mechanic works to make certain weapons with special abilities off-limits to most characters. i.e., a spiked chain can do things no other weapon can do, a bastard sword does more damage than other one handed weapons, and so on. A katana used 2 handed is simply a crappy greatsword, so there's no balance reason not to allow it.

2. In terms of Katanas being "exotic" flavor-wise, I'd say that varies a great deal based on perspective. There are multiple nations that use katanas as their primary weapon. In Wa, for example, katanas are virtually the only sword that exists. Are we to assume that every lvl 1 NPC-classed warrior has taken EWP as a feat? Or that everyone who comes from that region gets a bonus feat?

Furthermore, weapons are not classed as exotic based on flavor, they are classed based on complexity of use and the need for special training. A Nodachi (a very large katana) does not exist in NWN, but it does exist in D&D. It's a martial weapon, identical in every way to a greatsword. If you take away the justification of "it's too large to be used one-handed", a katana is an extremely straightforward weapon, nothing like a spiked chain or orc double axe.

3. Treating the katana as distinct from the bastard sword is an idea that has no support in any D&D sourcebook from 3.0 onward. I would like to direct you to pg. 110 of the 3.5 PHB, which is the only place in the entire volume in which the katana is mentioned. It says, and I quote "A katana (samurai sword), for example, is not on the weapon list, but you could equip your character with a katana and just treat it like a masterwork bastard sword."

The 3.5 Forgotten Realms sourcebook does not cover Kara-Tur, for unexplained reasons, as Kara-Tur is canonically part of Abeir-Toril. It also does not mention katanas. However, Kara-Tur originated in the Oriental Adventures sourcebook, the most recent edition of which has this to say about katanas: "The katana is a masterwork bastard sword". It goes on to say "A Medium-size character
can use a katana two-handed as a martial weapon". (pg. 71)

That seems fairly explicit to me. It is clearly the intent of the writers that katanas and bastard swords be equivalent under the rules. Now, it's true that OA is not a core sourcebook. But since it is the only sourcebook which features katanas, and because it deals with katanas in a manner completely consistent with what little the PHB does say about them, I think it should be considered applicable here.

Actually, the katana is in the Dungeon Master's Guide. It has support from every aspect of the Core 3.5 D&D ruleset. In the Dungeon Master's Guide, under weapons, Katanas and Wakizashis are listed. Katana is merely a MW bastard sword, and a wakizashi is a MW shortsword that does slashing instead of piercing.

You do NOT need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to Weapon Focus a bastard sword or a katana, as by the rules in the PHB AND DMG, using these weapons two handed only requires Martial Weapon Proficiency. EWP letting you use them one handed is actually a unique exception in the feat itself, which it also explicitly states in the feat in the PHB, and requires a Str of 13 to use them one handed with the feat.
Current PCs:
Zova Earth Breaker, Monk of Rasheman
Alyra Ashedown, Knight Commander of Silverymoon
User avatar
Lucifer
Gelatinous Cube
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:29 pm

Re: Katanas

Post by Lucifer »

Just to note also..Katanas are a Single Edged weapon..vs. double edged for Bastard Sword..katanas are even less likely to be used as a stabbing weapon than a bastard sword or greatsword do toi the single edge and natural curve..because of the curve also slashing surface is reduced making the pressureper inch increased ..which causes them to bite deepewr with less force and also use the arcing motion of the slash more effeciently..that is the reason they are a better weapon and considered "exotic"

Bastard Swords need two feats to be used one handed..martial and Exotic..Katanas only used the Exotic feat..so technically for some classes are a cheaper weapon feat wise
SwordSaintMusashi
Mook
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:49 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Katanas

Post by SwordSaintMusashi »

Lucifer wrote:Just to note also..Katanas are a Single Edged weapon..vs. double edged for Bastard Sword..katanas are even less likely to be used as a stabbing weapon than a bastard sword or greatsword do toi the single edge and natural curve..because of the curve also slashing surface is reduced making the pressureper inch increased ..which causes them to bite deepewr with less force and also use the arcing motion of the slash more effeciently..that is the reason they are a better weapon and considered "exotic"

Bastard Swords need two feats to be used one handed..martial and Exotic..Katanas only used the Exotic feat..so technically for some classes are a cheaper weapon feat wise

In ALFA, yes. By PnP, Katanas require exactly what bastard swords do, and work exactly the same way: they are the same weapon for all intents and purposes except flavor, and that katanas technically have to be MW to start. Feats for bastard sword also work with katanas, and vice versa. Same with short swords and wakizashis.
Current PCs:
Zova Earth Breaker, Monk of Rasheman
Alyra Ashedown, Knight Commander of Silverymoon
User avatar
mogonk
Dire Badger
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 am

Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

I think we've essentially settled the question of whether katanas are identical to bastard swords in PnP rules. They are, across the board, in every source that references them. NWN's treatment of katanas is aberrant. Since ALFA generally tries to stick to PnP pretty closely, I assume we can all agree that the rules correction which was applied to bastard swords should be applied to katanas, in the interests of consistency with core rules and game balance, if nothing else.

Specifically, that characters with martial weapon proficiency should be considered proficient with katanas for the purpose of wielding them two-handed or taking the Weapon Focus (katana) feat, per the DMG.

Does anybody take issue with that? Does anybody see a pressing reason why in this one regard ALFA should NOT respect the PnP system? Speak now or forever hold your peace.
User avatar
Curmudgeon
Gadfly
Posts: 4312
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:07 am
Location: East coast US

Re: Katanas

Post by Curmudgeon »

mogonk wrote:I think we've essentially settled the question of whether katanas are identical to bastard swords in PnP rules. They are, across the board, in every source that references them. NWN's treatment of katanas is aberrant. Since ALFA generally tries to stick to PnP pretty closely, I assume we can all agree that the rules correction which was applied to bastard swords should be applied to katanas, in the interests of consistency with core rules and game balance, if nothing else.

Specifically, that characters with martial weapon proficiency should be considered proficient with katanas for the purpose of wielding them two-handed or taking the Weapon Focus (katana) feat, per the DMG.

Does anybody take issue with that? Does anybody see a pressing reason why in this one regard ALFA should NOT respect the PnP system? Speak now or forever hold your peace.
You may assume NO such thing. Less than 12 hours of discussion time on the forums is nowhere near enough time to allow all knowledgeable and interested parties to weigh in.

I've started a thread in the Standards Forum to discuss this. Mogonk, if you wish to contribute to that discussion, you may submit your comments to a member of Standards for posting therein.
- Curmudgeon
HDM ALFA 03 - The Silver Marches
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Maxim #12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." - The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

"This is not my circus. These are not my monkeys."

Realmslore: Daily Dwarf Common
User avatar
mogonk
Dire Badger
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:48 am

Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

Curmudgeon wrote: You may assume NO such thing. Less than 12 hours of discussion time on the forums is nowhere near enough time to allow all knowledgeable and interested parties to weigh in.

I've started a thread in the Standards Forum to discuss this. Mogonk, if you wish to contribute to that discussion, you may submit your comments to a member of Standards for posting therein.
I suppose I should have been clearer, by "we" I meant the respondents to this thread, who had thus far not raised any serious objections to the idea. I completely agree that this should be given full process like any other proposed modification to the rules.

I will observe the discussion in Standards with interest.
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: Katanas

Post by Zelknolf »

I'd think that the responses regarding the concept issues with the katana are a pretty solid reason why not to support them as a martial weapon, and I think the defense of their presence in Forgotten Realms is equally telling. You have to go to Wa'an or Kozakura to find masters of the weapon, and travel from Wa'an to just the other parts of Kara Tur takes 3 months, provided you hop aboard the fastest ships and meet neither foul weather nor foul company on the way. And then there's the matter of crossing the mainland which, even if one manages some sort of perfectly-efficient pony express, where the journey may force each horse to ride until it dies and then be met with a fresh one, you're still stuck in the desert for months more with no significant sources of fresh water -- and that just gets you to Mulhorand, which is only "western" when compared to Kara Tur.
Locked