Katanas

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mogonk
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Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

Again, the "exoticism" of a weapon in terms of flavor has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it requires EWP to use. Exotic weapons are supposed to be weapons that require special training, represented by the feat, to be used properly. Not weapons that seem "foreign". A wakizashi is a simple weapon exactly like a shortsword. A nodachi is a martial weapon exactly like a greatsword. A yari is a simple weapon exactly like a longspear. Those weapons are all found almost exclusively in Kara-Tur, just like katanas.

Hell, even the text in the PHB directly references the idea that EWP is intended to represent "special training". It says nothing anywhere in the PHB to indicate that a weapon should be considered exotic simply because it is from a different culture. In fact, the DMG explicitly says that's NOT how you should class weapons as exotic, and lists several foreign weapons which it describes as martial, some of which are enumerated above.

Incidentally, scimitars and falchions aren't native to Faerun either. They are a style of weapon imported from Zakhara. By your logic, those should be exotic too. Actually, it would make more sense for scimitars to require EWP, as they have mechanical differences from western swords. In terms of mechanics, Kara-Turian weapons are identical to those of Faerun. EVERY other exotic weapon that exists is mechanically distinct from existing martial weapons. You think the katana should be the lone exception? On what basis? You're not just proposing going against RAW, you're talking about going against the RAI.

The rules could not be clearer on this: A katana IS a bastard sword in D&D. It's not that it should be treated in a similar manner to a bastard sword, it's that it should be treated as what it is. A bastard sword.

Unless there is some large, overriding benefit to contravention of the PnP rules, we should follow them. I wouldn't consider that a controversial position.
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Re: Katanas

Post by Zelknolf »

The large, overriding benefit is simple: requiring exotic WP makes katana use rare by increasing the cost to have one. It thus helps keeps the premise established in our narrative more consistent (object that is rare according to the narrative is actually rare in game). This is better for immersion, better for verisimilitude, better for RP, and thus better for fun. At least for me. I also know that scimitars seem to stay rare regardless of what else is going on (few people have high enough strength to get a return on the wider crit range, even if one never fights things that are immune to crits, and the weapon can't be finessed) and that ALFA1 demonstrated how ridiculously common the katana becomes if it is available easily -- as our haks then allowed us to tool a longsword to look like a katana. It seems to me that repeating that would be inviting the associated cheese, and it's a stinky cheese.
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mogonk
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Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that because katanas should be rare in the setting, violating the core rules to maintain arbitrary restrictions on katanas is justified to maintain that rarity IG.

First of all, even if we accept your premise, that would only be justified if there is no way to accomplish those objectives within core rules, and the burden of proof as far as that goes should be on the person advocating a rules violation. Limiting the availability of katanas at vendors, and requiring PCs who craft katanas to be thoroughly familiar with Waan culture would be far more logical than what you're suggesting. The rules already discourage katana use as a martial weapon. A greatsword is superior in every way. Distorting the rules to further discourage the use of an already suboptimal weapon should be the absolute last thing we consider.

The rules have a greater purpose than simply creating the results we want IG. They exist to create a world that makes sense, one that players can believe in. The verisimilitude you're concerned with is best ensured by even-handed, consistent enforcement of the rules, not by making an exception every time you see a tendency in the player base that you want to "correct".

Also, I think you're wrong about katana use harming the verisimilitude of the setting. Katanas are widely available in Faerun to those who can afford to buy MW weapons, at least according to the fiction published by WOTC. Don't believe me? Read Realms of the Dragons, which refers not only to imported katanas, but also to Faerunian smiths who have learned to forge them. Our setting isn't Faerun, any more than our setting is the Moonshae Isles, or the Silver Marshes. Our setting is Abeir-Toril. These cultures trade with one another, and travelers from other continents come to Faerun on a regular basis. It's the same landmass! In Waterdeep, for example, Shou Lung dresses are very fashionable. According to Unapproachable East, there have been several mass migrations from Kara-Tur to Faerun, and there is a regional background "Shou Expatriate". Attempting to enforce a kind of artificial insularity which isn't supported by canon sources seems to me as bizarre as trying to restrict the prevalence of a specific weapon by violating core rules.

Am I saying that the percentage of PCs that use katanas wouldn't be higher than the percentage of Faerun's residents which use them? Hell no, but that's already the case in the status quo. So what? PCs aren't supposed to be typical, and ALFA isn't supposed to be a simulator. A Waan samurai is not significantly more uncommon on the Moonshae Isles than a cultist of Auril. Or a freaking paladin. All of these archetypes are incredibly rare, unusual individuals and there's nothing wrong with that. PCs are meant to be extraordinary. Even if if every single player on every server used a katana, katanas would still be incredibly rare. The player population is a tiny, tiny fraction of the general population.

As for "cheese"... Able learner and one level of rogue is cheese. Frenzied berzerker is cheese. 2 levels of monk for deflect missiles is cheese. 2 levels of ranger for TWF is cheese. Putting an 8 in every ability score except the ones your character runs off of is cheese.

Using a suboptimal weapon for RP reasons? That's not cheese. That's roleplaying a character concept. It's just not a character concept that YOU like. Enforcing your personal preferences on other players does not warrant violating core rules and established canon.
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Re: Katanas

Post by Veilan »

mogonk wrote:As for "cheese"... Able learner and one level of rogue is cheese. Frenzied berzerker is cheese. 2 levels of monk for deflect missiles is cheese. 2 levels of ranger for TWF is cheese. Putting an 8 in every ability score except the ones your character runs off of is cheese.
Actually, in ALFA, those would be "powergaming". "Cheese" is everything that is just... cheesy, as in, stretching immersion and putting a big strain on the suspension of disbelief of other players, by being cliché or seeming more like fanboyhood than immersive and plausible character choice. Like an abundance of katanas where medievial knights should hold sway ;).

Now, from this unlikely defense of Zelk, to the point at hand: It is yet too early to call, but I am pretty sure Katanas are going to be treated the same as bastard swords in the long run. There is no real argument about game balance, since bastard swords exist. The choice of their ubiquity (or hopefully, lack thereof!) would then be left to builders and DMs, and I have full confidence that they know how rare such weaponry should be in our game's main locale.

And for the record, my character uses a scimitar... :mad:

Though it is referred to as "sabre" by my character...

;)

Cheers,
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oldgrayrogue
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Re: Katanas

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Can we please refrain from referring to certain builds or concepts as "cheese" or "powergaming" in these discussions? While Min-maxing is a form of powergaming, and taking certain classes or feats simply to power your build may be as well, where builds are story based that may not be the case, and I don't see a reason to flog them in general terms on the boards. As long as you play your stats and play your build there should not be an issue IMO. If they violate the rules they will be addressed. What is or is not "cheese" is a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

As to the katana, if it is available for purchase at any merchant then it is fair game as far as I am concerned.
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mogonk
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Re: Katanas

Post by mogonk »

oldgrayrogue wrote:Can we please refrain from referring to certain builds or concepts as "cheese" or "powergaming" in these discussions? While Min-maxing is a form of powergaming, and taking certain classes or feats simply to power your build may be as well, where builds are story based that may not be the case, and I don't see a reason to flog them in general terms on the boards. As long as you play your stats and play your build there should not be an issue IMO. If they violate the rules they will be addressed. What is or is not "cheese" is a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Fair point.
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Re: Katanas

Post by Veilan »

oldgrayrogue wrote:While Min-maxing is a form of powergaming, and taking certain classes or feats simply to power your build may be as well, where builds are story based that may not be the case
You have a point, but I also want no confusion about one thing here: Just because someone roleplayes their powergaming well, does not make it acceptal, or in some way not powergaming. So, no, you are not supposed to camp all orc spawns all day because your parents were killed by orcs ;).
mogonk wrote:In your experience, what constitutes "the long run" for ALFA. Days? Weeks?

Don't say months.

I'm just curious how long these things usually take.
Ouch, right on the wound with the finger!

Well, if I were the dictator of Standards able to make calls on the spot, days - but ALFA runs more measured and decentralised than that. Frustratingly bureaucratic to some this appears, staunchly democratic to others.

In any case, I do not expect it to stay with us longer than a couple days, and then some time still for implemetation by our heroic techies and builder - who told me the groundwork is already laid, though.

Two weeks, would be my guess, though I think it is entirely acceptable if you use a bastard sword as placeholder in game in the meantime.

Cheers, and hope to see you in game some time!
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Re: Katanas

Post by danielmn »

oldgrayrogue wrote:Can we please refrain from referring to certain builds or concepts as "cheese" or "powergaming" in these discussions? While Min-maxing is a form of powergaming, and taking certain classes or feats simply to power your build may be as well, where builds are story based that may not be the case, and I don't see a reason to flog them in general terms on the boards. As long as you play your stats and play your build there should not be an issue IMO. If they violate the rules they will be addressed. What is or is not "cheese" is a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

As to the katana, if it is available for purchase at any merchant then it is fair game as far as I am concerned.
...Able Learner IS cheese though.... :P :twisted:
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Re: Katanas

Post by Galadorn »

Anyone in this world... who dosen't accept a nice chunk of cheese when offered... is entirely untrustworthy.

In fact that should be the final exam for any human who is about to be given any employment that generally is considered a position of authority, loyalty, honor, or care of the old, sick or young.


EX: Specialist Pediatric Student walks upon the stage to accept her Medical Doctor's Degree in infant care she spent her own hard earned money to gain after 12 years between volunteering to deworm Somalian children under extreme fire... Degree is handed to her ...but a few steps before, another woman smiles and offers her a two ounce slice of fresh medium grade cheddar, with or without a nice choice of salted or unsalted cracker...

She passes on the cheese.

Presenters tie her feet to a barbed chain by the ankles, cover her in tar and feathers, and drag her flayed throughout the roads over rock salt covered broken concrete until dead.

Give 'em the Katana! w00t
*Grand Master of Cheese*
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