Extreme Environments

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:10 pm

Having just read through Sandstorm. Mastering the Perils of Fire and Sand it is clear that we need to make some decisions before we start on this. The DMG has basic rules for extreme environments; do we want to use these, or do we want the more complex rules in Sandstorm, Frostburn, and Stormwracked?

Personally, I'd like to see us use as many of the environmental systems as reasonably possible. I'd like to see us use food and drink, with dehydration rules; I'd like to see us use fatigue; and I'd like travelling across difficult terrain to be... difficult; to involve planning, to involve a challenge.

However, there are clearly three limits on this:
(1) What is possible, in the engine.
(2) What is possible, with the time and expertise we have.
(3) What is wanted.

Sandstorm gives us rules for:
(a) Heat (including altitude, time of day, protection, equipment)
(b) Dehydration
(c) Sand and wind
(d) Sun

Frostburn gives us rules for:
(a) Altitude Sickness and Avalanches
(b) Cold Dangers
(c) Frostbite
(d) Hypothermia
(e) Freezing and Thawing
(f) Getting lost (a potentially interesting use with dynamic areas here)
(g) Light
(h) Snow Blindness
(i) Terrain Dangers
(j) Weather
(k) Whiteout
(And those are just the mundane environment conditions.)

Stormwrack gives us rules for:
(a) Currents and Streams
(b) Depth
(c) Drowning
(d) Hypothermia
(e) Light
(f) Sinking and Shipwreck

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:19 pm

I'm very much for including environmental effects and will aid in any way I can (likely the plodding data entry stuff and cheerleading).

Snoring Moose · Post by **Snoring Moose** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:24 pm

Is there clear canon information on how Ranger-type skills or specialising in particular types of environment feed into this idea ? It could open very interesting avenues for playing Ranger / guide characters.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:45 pm

Survival Skill:

DC Task
10 Get along in the wild. Move up to one-half your overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed). You can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10.
15 Gain a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saves against severe weather while moving up to one-half your overland speed, or gain a +4 bonus if you remain stationary. You may grant the same bonus to one other character for every 1 point by which your Survival check result exceeds 15.
15 Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.
15 Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:47 pm

Hunger/Thirst/Fatigue scripts would be fine as long as they are per area up to the builder. Trekking across mountains may require them. Strolling along a road through rich meadows would not.

If the toolset can do justice to the complex rules, and we have time to code them, I'd be in favor of the complex system. It's also possible we could outsource some of this - there are other projects that are a lot more gung-ho for this stuff ;)

Blackwill · Post by **Blackwill** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:02 pm

I wanna voice my full support to a system that incorporates the Frosburn, Sandstorm, etc rules.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:09 pm

It's a good question. So we don't waste time retracing covered ground, please read the following threads:

Feature Spec (based on 3.5e rules)
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=27381

HTF debate:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=28054

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:06 pm

Extreme conditions I think would add some realism. Hunger/thirst/fatigue i would not be enthusiastic for. the difference i think is that the former can be addressed by a particular gear configuration in part, and is on/off in a way completely contingent on locale. You act upon it once, or don't. HTF requires regular maintenance, with periodic effects that have much greater scope to be as much an interruption as anything else.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:56 pm

I don't have any of those books. What sort of data needs to be present on our items in order to support the rules? Can you provide a complete list? If we make sure the data is there, we can implement the rules in a more leisurely fashion.

Keep in mind we mostly just want to simulate the most obvious adverse effects of extreme weather. Freezing to death, or dying of heat stroke or dehydration.

Altitude, weather effects (storms, etc) are desired, but those aren't related to any items as far as I know.

coach · Post by **coach** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:59 am

Cold Lands would be much more realistic with

Frostburn gives us rules for:
(a) Altitude Sickness and Avalanches
(b) Cold Dangers
(c) Frostbite
(d) Hypothermia
(e) Freezing and Thawing
(f) Getting lost (a potentially interesting use with dynamic areas here)
(g) Light
(h) Snow Blindness
(i) Terrain Dangers
(j) Weather
(k) Whiteout

several of these are mentioned in TCL canon sources as problems that can/will occur depending on precautions taken and some no matter what precautions taken

Blackwill · Post by **Blackwill** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:38 am

Ronan wrote:I don't have any of those books.

Ohno? I can sort that out.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:36 pm

I started pulling out the data and putting it into more manageable form, but there is a seriously large amount of it, so I wanted to raise the issues in principal beforehand.

Re. Hunger/Thirst - As I said, I'd like to see these ALFA-wide. If, for whatever lame-ass reason, that's not going to fly, then do we want them to feature in specific climates or do we dump them altogether? I.e. you don't ever run out of water, even in the deepest desert.

The chief way the ruleset manages the conditions is by assigning "Protection values" to certain types of gear - almost all specialised - and to inherent traits, such as feats and monster climate types. It wouldn't seem to be too complex to add in; the heat metal and chill metal effects you get with extremes of cold and heat, for instance, could probably simply refer to the ac tag in the armour to see if they apply.

Fionn, anyone you had in mind?

wvincenti · Post by **wvincenti** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:51 pm

I'd rather ignore hunger and thirst entirely.
I've got no interest in figuring out how many gallons of water a PC can carry while traveling.

-Bill

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:39 pm

If we do HTF, it should be *supported* ALFA wide. This should be turned on by builders in specific areas. I don't care how much water you are carrying in a rich forest with lots of streams. I do care that the same canteen works in every mountain/desert we have *if* the builder wishes to require it.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:07 pm

I think there was consensus in using a HTF system for extreme environments. Beyond that, it's too contentious to discuss.

Perhaps we can explore adding item properties to the 2das to support extreme environments rather than using local variables. It would simplify the creation and application of such items.