Crafting, general philosophy

Development of standard ALFA palettes (ABR)

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ç i p h é r
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Upon further reflection, this sort of thing should probably be covered by RP XP. It's certainly role play to pursue one's craft and earning RP XP should be enough. I think we've talked about this previously actually. Heh.
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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

Yeah, rp xp fills in the blanks for a lot of activities, assuming it's actually given out. My PC should've been getting it while robbing houses. :P
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Post by Fionn »

If we're talking about RP XP for character development - having a profession (armorsmith), finding a Cause (High Lord's Armorsmith), and working to suceed at the Cause (you *did* take some soft skills, yes?), then I'm fine with awarding XP for that RP.

If we're talking 25XP + 25 GP per hour, every hour, for standing in front of an anvil.... I'd rather see them hunt Deer to 6th.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

I'm not sure what that formula is, but there's certainly no gold involved.

I was referring to scripted RP XP primarily, the kind that's banked according to time spent on the server (0-8xp/hr max IIRC). Are you familiar with the RP XP ball? The actual amount varies based on the quality of your RP (set by a DM and based on past RP history).

I don't know if 8xp/hr will get players very far though. Clearly having static quests not all be combat based or having ways of overcoming challenges w/o combat would help keep crafters from having to resort to combat for leveling purposes. I'm not sure what the best answer is in any case.
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Post by Fionn »

8XP/hr is *IG* hours. Works out to ~ 68.5 XP/hr. Considering this is 24/7 zero risk, that's WAY high. If we are using this script, I'd recommend time crafting be exempted.

As for gold, that's rather the whole point of crafting - making valuable items out of less valuable items + time.

My vision here is that Crafting is intended to fulfill an RP role. Some PCs will spend a *portion* of their resources becoming a craftsman, but will still primarily be adventurers (thus they do not have a Class as Smith or Merchant). Some others will instead *need* an item that cannot be bought, thus they will have to learn how to make it themselves. Since the latter will always be a DM plot, it's the former we need to balance. Since full-time Master Smiths still only make a portion of what an succesful adventurer can earn, our part-time Master Smiths should be lower still.

We need to make it clear to people that we are *not* putting in the Armorsmith Class. We are allowing thier Dwarven Cleric or Elven Fighter to craft. Most of their training is going to be non-crafting related. While they may eventually rise to greatness as a Smith, it *still* will not rival the greatness they could have as a Warrior or Priest.

Everything from there is implementation. I need to know if that is the ALFA vision on crafting, or merely mine.
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Post by Ronan »

Fionn wrote:Everything from there is implementation. I need to know if that is the ALFA vision on crafting, or merely mine.
Faerun contains armorsmiths, so ALFA, ideally, would as well. If we already have the entire framework in place, I see no reason not to allow an Expert class. They won't advance as fast or as richly as adventurers, but thats their choice. I'm not seeing a disadvantage to allowing Experts in ALFA.
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Post by Fionn »

That sounds fine - will it be hard to add as an actual Class?
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Post by Ronan »

No, just tedius. It will need a ton of 2da entries to represent different skill combinations, since Aurora can't do the "any 10 skills" class skill thing the expert has.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Remember though that EVERYONE on the same server is exposed to RP XP, but the advancement rate is specific to the individual (set by a DM). So there is already an XP floor there. I don't see why crafters would be exempt from it when everyone else wouldn't, even the tavern emoters. Sure, they also earn gold, but so do adventurers. They earn more XP per hour and more GP per hour when adventuring just as we expect/want. So I think it all works itself out.

P.S. I think players will mostly be part-time crafters, but I wouldn't put it past a few to be dedicated crafters or try and create merchant empires.
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Post by Fionn »

Well, the way the system works on TPI, you don't get XP for sitting solo in a bar. I haven't looked at the code for the other system (let alone gotten any of that sweet XP :)

If we're doing 2-3 XP/hr (25 XP per RL hour) which is the baseline XP for everyone, then it's not game breaking. 8/hr would be - why the hell would anyone adventure if they could make more XP without risk?
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Post by ç i p h é r »

It really depends on the time ratio we go with, but RP XP is actually another discussion. It's troubling to see that we're not standardized there.

The point though is that RP XP sufficiently provides XP gain to crafters that avoid combat as a means of advancement. We don't need to devise anything else. RP XP, either scripted or by DM awards covers the gap.
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Post by Mulu »

Well, what Fionn is saying is that rp, for xp purposes, means interacting with other PC's, not just being IC. True roleplaying requires others to be present and involved. Crafting is almost necessarily going to be a solo activity, and in fact it's being designed to be a solo activity to keep people busy when no DM is on and they don't want to chat.

So, why give xp at all? The purpose of crafting is not PC advancement, though there is some potential for wealth gain. It's simply activity to engage in when bored, something to fill the DM-less hours. The activity itself is the reward, with wealth acquisition thrown in as a bonus.

So, to be a crafter you have to take levels in artisan, which is a reflection of your investment over being an adventurer. The more crafting you want to be able to do, the less time you spend training your adventuring skills and thus the less you can use your earned xp for adventuring class advancement. One of the many things that NWN eliminated was training for advancement. Remember it isn't just xp that allows PCs to go up in level under PnP rules, they also have to train. If you are spending your non-adventuring training time making plate mail, your experience is being used for that instead, regardless of where it was gained. This is a D&D thing. It's why you can gain xp by killing monsters with a longsword, and then use that xp to take a level in sorcerer (which requires no apprenticeship, it's innate).

If the artisan class is going to be used instead of feats (with crafting skills only being available to artisans presumably), I think the DC's should be lowered to allow earlier entry. Investment in a feat is significant, investment in a class level is huge. The question is, what can a first level artisan make?
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Post by Ronan »

Mulu wrote:Well, what Fionn is saying is that rp, for xp purposes, means interacting with other PC's, not just being IC. True roleplaying requires others to be present and involved. Crafting is almost necessarily going to be a solo activity, and in fact it's being designed to be a solo activity to keep people busy when no DM is on and they don't want to chat.
I am a bit confused as to why your still saying this, after 6 pages of discussion? The largest focus of this crafting system is, in my mind, to have crafters interact with the outside world if they want to make anything decent. If they do not, they will never get access to special materials, and will be stuck cafting ordinary MW items. The focus on DM-placed (only) materials for anything above MW and 3.5 DR rules are ment to ensure that not only is crafting not a solo activity, but that its advantageous for adventurers to take advantage of.

Yeah, people can still solo-craft and buy common materials from merchants, but the idea is that will not be nearly as rewarding. They will be skilled artisans, but skilld artisans in a world of magic and monsters. The actual act of crafting the item may or may not take a lot of in-game time, thats not decided at this point.

If PCs level up from crafting or RP XP and then take levels in barbarian, then that is something that will have to be delt with. DMs should not be validating such levels, but if they are, or its being exploited heavily, we can add something to prevent this abuse.
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Post by Nerine »

Mulu wrote:The activity itself is the reward, with wealth acquisition thrown in as a bonus.
Huh? Are you stark raving mad? Did your brain drop out one of your nostrils? :wink: It's the getting a full suit of custom plate mail or whatever for a fraction of market price that's the reward. Oh why do I even bother? :lol:
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Post by Fionn »

LOL

My concern was 6 levels of completely safe 'RP' at an anvil, then suddenly your CE Ftr decides he's bored with that and starts killing folk (coincidentally when he's got a full +1 kit and 15,000 XP).

If we're putting in the Expert Class, then anyone that spends 15K leveling as a tank is gonna get spanked by a DM (or refused the level). Problem solved. I have no issue with somebody savely leveling at the lowest rate 'allowed' in a class that is *not* set up for combat or pursuasion.

This leads to rich merchant/crafter PCs that *need* loyal PC body guards.... which leads to RP :)
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