Crafting, general philosophy

Development of standard ALFA palettes (ABR)

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Fionn
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Post by Fionn »

Looks good. One skill per slot, and one for slotless (perhaps with a Feat) seems balanced. If we get a high INT Human gung ho for crafting .... well he'll be missing out on combat & soft skills. Kinda the whole point.

Is there any Feat requirement for mundane crafting (canon or proposed ALFA)?

Do we wish to require Skill Focus to make items suitable for [+3 effective bonus or better]?

Do we wish Skill Focus (or another Feat) to work with special materials? Per canon, Mithril really can't be worked in a Human lifetime without magic. There's a lot of psuedo-magic properties listed for Adamantine that we will see requests for if they're not part of the plan.

My concern is the Human Wizard one-stop shoppe. If our purpose is to require coordination and cooperation in order to craft anything noteworthy (or pay $$$ at the NPCs), this is the obvious exploit.
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Maeva
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Post by Maeva »

Ronan wrote:If a dwarf fighter wanted to be a master smith, he'd probably want an INT of at least 12, and would focus on weaponsmithing and armorsmithing. Overall I'm not seeing anything wrong with this?
3.5 Ed. says that dwarves have a +2 racial bonus to craft checks that are related to stone and metal. So a dwarf could possibly get by without the INT of at least 12.
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Post by AlmightyTDawg »

Fionn wrote:Looks good. One skill per slot, and one for slotless (perhaps with a Feat) seems balanced. If we get a high INT Human gung ho for crafting .... well he'll be missing out on combat & soft skills. Kinda the whole point.
Watch out in that there's a fair amount of overlap in those. Armorsmithing, for example, would adequately cover helms as well as armor and shields. conceptually the same could be said for leatherworking could cover Leather armors, belts, gloves, and boots (maybe even hats), while Weaving could cover robes, magical vestments, cloaks, and possibly gloves. It's not necessarily one per slot, but could make sense applied over various slots. The only things I think might be absent from Ronan's list are:

- Blacksmithing - general forming of metallic non armor/weapon items, such as pendants, brooches, rods, and amulets, possibly including rings
- Jeweler - Includes gemcutting and gemsetting, as well as ring manufacture.
- Woodworking - general forming of wooden non armor/weapon items such as pendants, brooches, staves, wands, and amulets, possibly including rings. Required for druidic/ranger enchantments perhaps?
Fionn wrote:Is there any Feat requirement for mundane crafting (canon or proposed ALFA)?

Do we wish to require Skill Focus to make items suitable for [+3 effective bonus or better]?
Not directly, but you can build craft DCs for high-artistry masterwork equipment under the implicit assumption that a crafter has taken a Skill Focus feat in the relative skill. That it's part of the mark of being a master craftsman of that type.

It might, if we plan on implementing the Expert Class, also be of benefit to add a "favoured crafting" skill that works kind of like a skill focus on the favoured enemy principle (+1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, and another at +1...).
Fionn wrote:Do we wish Skill Focus (or another Feat) to work with special materials? Per canon, Mithril really can't be worked in a Human lifetime without magic. There's a lot of psuedo-magic properties listed for Adamantine that we will see requests for if they're not part of the plan.
I think anything listed as a special material would fall under this. I think forcing feat expenditure is a bit extreme because there are so few - the simple crafting of masterwork items, even with special materials, is not so tangible a benefit I don't think to justify basically "forcing" feats. Particularly given the number that are there, and the fact that under 3.5e Cold Iron and Adamantine will practically be musts (for DR). I would much rather have it fall under general craft checks than require feats for each, but I've grown partial to my "Speak Languages" system (because it's mine. Oh me...)
Fionn wrote:My concern is the Human Wizard one-stop shoppe. If our purpose is to require coordination and cooperation in order to craft anything noteworthy (or pay $$$ at the NPCs), this is the obvious exploit.
Well, there are always tradeoffs to be made. A mage, realistically, should be spending on Concentration, Spellcraft, and at least two Knowledge skills (including Decipher Script). A few points in cross-class skills here and there help too, though that would require a DM ethic change over NWN1.

Even with all that, though, the ability of a standard mage to have more than say 2 or 3 extra skill points a level to dedicate to crafting becomes an issue - I think the way crafting will work, it will be largely specialized. Obviously the minmax points will be "which skills can I specialize in and get the greatest benefit" but I doubt you can pull off one stop shop in entirety.

But at the very least, think of it this way - how does it compare to the status quo where a wizard needs only a generic masterwork item, or even not really any item for a wondrous creation? It's at least some level of limitation, and something where other characters could realistically specialize off of a wizzie's "minmax" skills. I think of note for the three possibilities I listed up above in addition to Ronan's are the masterwork skills for staves, wands, and rods - and gemsetting as well could be a crucial part of a number of recipes.
Maeva wrote:3.5 Ed. says that dwarves have a +2 racial bonus to craft checks that are related to stone and metal. So a dwarf could possibly get by without the INT of at least 12.
I think Ronan's point about INT 12 was having the extra skill point. The +2 bonus for dwarves is helpful at low levels, but eventually loses its punch towards the mid/high levels that we're talking about for true master artistry.
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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

I really think a feat investment should be seriously considered for MW crafting. Skill points really aren't as much investment as a feat, and it should help to prevent Fionn's concern for a one-stop craft all wizard (best build would be rogue/wizard I suspect).

So, using this list:
- Armorsmithing
- Leatherworking
- Bowmaking
- Trapmaking
- Weaponsmithing
- Alchemy
- Weaving

You'd have MW feats of:

Use Forge (armor, weapon) (blacksmith, jeweler)
Skilled Craftsman (leatherworking, bow, trap) (woodworking)
Artisan (alchemy, weave)

Which also matches up nicely with the expected class professions of each type of crafting: fighter types, ranger/rogue types, spellcasters. You could even limit the MW feat selection by class if desired, to really prevent a "craft everything" PC (or at least make it require triple classing :P )

[edit] And of course allocate any additional crafting skills like TDawg has proposed to those three feats. I primarily like the feat investment to really differentiate between combat specialists and crafters. [/edit]
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Fionn
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Post by Fionn »

Fionn wrote:
Do we wish Skill Focus (or another Feat) to work with special materials? Per canon, Mithril really can't be worked in a Human lifetime without magic. There's a lot of psuedo-magic properties listed for Adamantine that we will see requests for if they're not part of the plan.

I think anything listed as a special material would fall under this. I think forcing feat expenditure is a bit extreme because there are so few - the simple crafting of masterwork items, even with special materials, is not so tangible a benefit I don't think to justify basically "forcing" feats. Particularly given the number that are there, and the fact that under 3.5e Cold Iron and Adamantine will practically be musts (for DR). I would much rather have it fall under general craft checks than require feats for each, but I've grown partial to my "Speak Languages" system (because it's mine. Oh me...)
So.... DR will be a non-magical item property, while resistance/immunity will be magical?

I'm really concerned if we are allowing anyone under say 10th to be crafting DR gear.
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Post by Mulu »

I thought DR was a banned property?
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Post by AlmightyTDawg »

Fionn wrote:So.... DR will be a non-magical item property, while resistance/immunity will be magical?

I'm really concerned if we are allowing anyone under say 10th to be crafting DR gear.
Well, three approaches to handling it - recognize that adamantine has always been a special/mundane case for DR. We do have magical DR (at least in NWN1 with the 5/- single-subtype distinction):

1. Use the base rules for rarity of materials and Max DM awards. An adamantine chain shirt is at a minimum 5k (1/- DR), chainmail and other mediums are minimum 10k (2/- DR) and heavies are 15k (3/- DR) even without enchantment. This does create a significant barrier to entry from a DM allowance side, but yes becomes problematic if applied to a static system.

2. Have special materials establish negative modifiers to craft checks in accordance with their difficulty and rarity to kind of sheohorn in the overall power curve. (1) and (2) are not mutually exclusive, so long as DM oversight of adamantine crafting happens

3. Using a "token" or "Speak Language" system, one actually has to learn the process (minimum period of acclimation/RP), and can be iforced (quasi-feat style) to have minimum craft ranks in an appropriate craft skill to even learn at the level. For example, cold iron (basic) might be 2 craft ranks in appropriate (armorsmith, weaponsmith, blacksmith) skill while zalantar/darkwood (basic) requires 4 ranks in appropriate (woodworking, bowmaking) skill, and adamantine (basic) requires 10 ranks, adamantine (intermediate) requires 10 ranks, and adamantine (advanced) requires 20 ranks. (1) and (3) are not mutually exclusive, but (2) and (3) are.
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Post by Fionn »

if we hard-code 'Crafter' as a class, but don't code XP into crafting, this gets much harder to get to the high end.

I would recommend that we consider Feats for specific issues only. Skill Focus required to create MW gear suitable beyond basic enchantment (+1 only). "Master Craftsman" required to work Adamantine/Mithril/Cold Iron (not sure if that's 1 or 3 feats).
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Post by Fionn »

Forgot about the PRICING for mundane special materials. As long as we're factoring that into craft time, I'm fine with this. Limit access to the stuff as well - Dorfs don't leave that laying about for PC1 to find. Add a penalty to the skill DC and I think that works perfectly.
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Ronan
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Post by Ronan »

AlmightyTDawg wrote:- Blacksmithing - general forming of metallic non armor/weapon items, such as pendants, brooches, rods, and amulets, possibly including rings
- Jeweler - Includes gemcutting and gemsetting, as well as ring manufacture.
- Woodworking - general forming of wooden non armor/weapon items such as pendants, brooches, staves, wands, and amulets, possibly including rings. Required for druidic/ranger enchantments perhaps?
Hmm. One of those alright to add, even if that increases the number of crafting skills to 8. What I don't want are a bunch of similar or overlapping skills a crafter would have to dilute himself in to become a master of one area. So I'd condense blacksmithing, jeweler and woodworking down into one skill... Perhaps to take a bit from UO, tinker? metalworking? carving? Something to indicate general-purpose carving or artistry of small objects.

I'm definitely against requiring feats for MW crafting. For special materials this also seems a bit harsh, especially since magical crafters require no skill investment (though they have to know certain spells, which for sorcs and bards is character investiment, and for wizards a monitary one). Some form of "lore" item or training may better serve us here, though given the obvious things all material types have in common ("get metal hot, hammer into shape") compared to making different sorts of magical items ("No you fool! Never mix a fire opal with a newt eye in this incantation!") that may even be too much of a requirement.

Its also my opinion that the "lore" requirement of magical crafting removes the need for a specific skill, and is truer to the setting of FR than any generic skill or feat. Magical crafters such as Ioun typically got famous for discovering a process no one else knew, there was no game mechanic letting Karsus discover how to make Ioun stones with a DC40 craft: arcane skill check.
Fionn wrote:Forgot about the PRICING for mundane special materials. As long as we're factoring that into craft time, I'm fine with this. Limit access to the stuff as well - Dorfs don't leave that laying about for PC1 to find. Add a penalty to the skill DC and I think that works perfectly.
The plan is to make them DM-placed only, using the persistant placeables system. See the first post in this thread.
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Post by Mulu »

Ronan wrote:I'm definitely against requiring feats for MW crafting. For special materials this also seems a bit harsh, especially since magical crafters require no skill investment
But they do require feat investments. A single feat with no prerequisites for MW crafting isn't asking much, but it does force one to break their perfect min/max combat build to do crafting, which I see as an appropriate investment. Remember under the old AD&D rules to be a blacksmith you'd have to take it as a secondary skill, and secondary skills later evolved into feats, so it actually has some symmetry to it along with material qualities vs monster types. (If find it more than a little interesting that the rule set is slowly returning to its origin point). Also remember that the only people who are going to do much of this are those who have the time to be online for dozens of hours per week, so the "time investment" is not in any way punitive. In fact, it's a reward, as it gives them something to do.

A MW feat investment only becomes costly if you try to pursue too many types of crafting, which is a good thing. Limiting it by class would also give some class specialization, tying class back into MW crafting. We are talking about D&D after all.
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Post by Fionn »

MW crafting is a lot pricier than magical. Anyone wishing to min/max isn't going for the MW route. 5K for 1/- DR Chain Shirt is not something I'd expect a lot of peeps are prepared to do.

Did we ever settle on the time requirements? I think we're talking some amount of IC time (or hourly checks essentially requiring to return to keyboard every 7 min).
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Post by Mulu »

Well Fionn, you're basically suggesting the same thing: A skill focus feat to make items of X quality, a master craftsman feat to make items of X+Y quality. Either way it requires deviating from a combat build, which has a lot of appeal to me as I don't like the idea of the PC that's good at everything. Especially since I picture most MW crafters to be human or dwarven fighters.

Make crafting require more investment than just time and a few skill picks, and it makes it more meaningful. Being a crafter *should* actually change the PC build. After all, you are not just an adventurer.
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Post by Ronan »

Well, there is the fact that masterwork items suck. They just aren't very good unless your level 2. Require a feat to make them? Who would take that feat? Shell out a few hundred gold to a local smith, providing him with special materials if needed. Thats a lot easier.

Magically crafting is far more flexible, and far more powerful. The only way mundane crafting touches, and indeed can sometimes provide things no enchantment can, is with special materials. So if we are going to require a feat for any sort of mundane crafting, its not going to be for MW stuff. Its going to be for the working of rare pseudo-magical materials.

The cultures with the most crafting traditions would be dwarves (with hammers) and elves (with magic). The fabricate spell will have to be altered a bit, since we value the time needed more than PnP does.
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Post by Mulu »

Ronan wrote:Well, there is the fact that masterwork items suck.
But they sell for a profit, and if you add in all of the material X v. monster X issues, they are quite useful under 3.5 rules. Bottom line is, it takes time and energy to learn how to craft MW quality items, and that's time you are not spending learning to dodge or trip your opponent. Make MW crafting a class, make it take a feat or two, but make it do *something* that shows significant investment and deviation from the pure adventurer. Feats are certainly less investment than a non-adventuring class, and tie in very well with magical crafting feats.

Throw in wealth guidelines, slow-leveling, and low magic, and MW items don't really suck at all. My retired PC Vala never had an item more powerful than an MW item, since she never recieved any DM favoritism. :wink:
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