The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

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Galadorn
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Galadorn »

Mick wrote:...occasionally PCs and/or players might have to jump through some RP and/or adventuring hoops, depending on what special trinket they wish to create.
This is by far the best way to get custom gear / enchant anything. For me, even doing "special tasks" or DM-requested RP for even enchanting a +1 Dagger would be my first choice always. I'm not asking for that or anything, nor expect it. :)
The proposal was mostly to give DMs a break from the extra time they might have to put into the whole OOC part of a crafting incident. And for players to have a go-to person immediately no matter where they are located (since item toolsetting and input into a module is entirely OOC so location is irrelevant wrt the OOC part), and to be able to trust in a return in an expected/reasonable time.
The RP around an enchant is a different issue altogether.
If a DM need not do any of the OOC toolsetting and implementation of any custom gear or enchantings, then that DM has more time to DM-play.
t-ice wrote: Aren't we having a automated crafting system for this kind of thing? One that makes it possible to create the kind of items that can also be had in shops totally without DM burden (under 4000gp as I recall...)
This would be very cool. Right now it's not available, and most items ordered by PCs are low level, less expensive items. Which makes them faster to save up for, very important for survival, and faster to make by crafters. Since items can be later "upgraded" as well, most PCs as soon as they have the coin for +1, will of course get the +1 crafted, keeping them alive longer until they can save up the rest for a +2 etc. So there is a lot of smaller, cheapest, fast items being requested, especially by other PCs player-run, since they can always get items cheaper this way! Not to mention they can actually share the experience with the crafter, actualyl role-playing WHAT they want. And then toolset the item themselves or asking a toolsetter to custom make a cool "look" of their item as well... which is very popular compared to buying generic made items from vendors in game.
t-ice wrote: Uber epic (and storyful) items should only be present within the context of a story a DM tells, anyway. Having a CDM who wants to assist other DMs would be great, of course. But somehow I'm getting the proposal here is to have players make item creation requests and not DMs, so as to have a separate entity that players can go to to turn their hard-farmed gold into uber items, thereby circumventing the DM team that runs stories for them. This is not good. :eew:
I would say in a perfect world ALL items should only be present within the context of a story a DM tells.
And "uber items" would never be "only CDM" jurisdiction, and as mentioned in the OP, definitely at least a collaboration of CDM and DM.

When I DM in PnP, I absolutely never give out "Dagger +1" in any treasure hoard.
I either hand-draw a picture of one, or find a super cool picture of a wiked looking dagger online, then write up a half page or more history for the item including who made it, where it came from etc, and its properties are never "Just +1". The dagger will almost always have a history, and include an extra bonus against "something" like... '+1/+2 vs. Lizardfolk', and additionally, when weilded, the weilder gains +1 to Hide checks (or something), this property would also be related to some relevant part of the weapon's history, this weapon might also inclulde a minus to a certain skill check, like, also when held, the weilder suffers a -2 to Charisma based checks with any "Draconic" race, etc, etc. And the list just might go on.
Instead of that: "You find a +1 Dagger".
Finally, i'd print the whole thing off and present it to the player (if the history and properties were found out of course by the player, Bard PCs could roll Legend Lore abilities and slowly reveal these histories and properties, making that what once was a "Dagger +1", into a little RP mini adventure for more than one PC.)
...............But.....
.......we know that's asking a bit much, as well, many do not believe +1 and even +2 gear is "worthy" of a DM story... but most would agree getting to 3rd, 4th, 5th? level, PCs should be swinging a +1 sword and have money enough to maybe upgrade some armor to at least +1...etc.

Item creation requests when a PC saves up and knows another PC is a crafter is always player requested really.
The proposal never ever assumed ANY requests would ever circumvent any DM.
The proposal as re-stated above in this reply, is MAINLY to make the whole OOC related process much easier for ALL parties involved.
Basically that a seperate volunteer (who knows pricing, and toolsetting etc), fully at least informing DM(s), would help to work on or do all of the OOC stuff related to implementing custom gear or enchanting items. Again, making the whole process easier and faster for the DM and players involved.
t-ice wrote:If I run a plot with, say, giants as enemies, I really don't want for my players to go to the CDM between two installments to have giant slaying arrows made. The stuff that is good for them to go have made are generics (say cloak of elvenkind to better hide from giants), like the ones we have in shops and could be automated by crafting. It's all great of course if I can ask the CDM to create giant slaying arrows for me because I don't have the aptitude, so that I can run the plot of the PCs trying to get their hands on them.
Yes. all of the above is exactly what I thought would help DMs and players.

And of course, players would not go out and request things like giant slaying arrows between your sessions! Since anything like that would of course need approval by a DM. The CDM could probably easily ask a few quick questions to the player making the item request, and verify anything questionable with you before doing any work. I don't think people would use the CDM this way.
t-ice wrote:
Ith wrote:in the flow of normal time if such a person has that ability/skill and invested in it, why in the world would they not use it if they have the time and materials, money, ingredients etc?
That's the whole point. Those are for the active DM (and the server DM team by extension) to decide. Not the players, nor a global CDM. (The players first ask the DM, and then the DM then asks the CDM to help provide the items to the players, if the PCs are deemd to have the resources to solve the problem by crafting behind the scenes)

Because obtaining the resources are likely a huge part of the plot. Like, say the party could make those giant slaying arrows but they'd need the heart of a dwarf as an ingredient... do they murder one, and if they do, do they pick a soft innocent target or fight that powerful, eeevul duargar?
This is exactly how I see the CDM acting. Sure, initial requests could be directed at a DM first. Why not. :) And if all is well, bring in the CDM, and the DM does not have to do anything else until the CDM, who has chosen to do this work, ...has done so in a faster time (most likely), exactly as requested, and the item furthermore is custom and requires no more "pricing approval" or modification by anyone, and can be passed on to any server.

If obtaining materials ARE even a minor part of any part of a plot then the DM of course takes over. Requests to the CDM can be made as DMs need them.

I believe a CDM's job would be 99% involved in examples of such:
PC1 has MW Armor from a shop. (cost is considerable enough)
PC1 saved 1000 gold.
PC1 asks PC2-crafter to enchant his armor to +1.
PC2 charges whatever but cheaper than 1000.
CDM informs DM a minor enchanting is requested and sends a PM (templated?) to DM for reference.
CDM makes, brings in, and gives PC2 the item, and takes gold and XP from the crafter PC2.
PC2 heads off to RP the trade to PC1.

Believe me, there are very many such commissions. Very many.

Having a seperate entity be able to do the legwork around these "non-DM-story-related" expected upgrades that almost all PCs go through, I think is very helpful to all involved.

As I stated above, i'd rather all magic items be mythical creations with a long history, which is why at least my own enchanted items have unique and detailed descriptions.
Brokenbone wrote: A "global" customer service DM makes limited sense. Each server team though might do well to have someone who knows the first thing about pricing, and has a good awareness of where weird ingredients / research might be required through their HDM. Like TSM, special materials, you may look hard at "how well do I know the dwarves under those mountains full of metal"? In BG it might be "I bet the Underdark is the best place to get rare stuff." It could be in cases, teams may just say "don't care, RP sending a letter to Waterdeep Walmart, package of exactly what you need arrives in 2 RL weeks for precisely the market price, not a penny more." Because in an iron-age type world, I figure mail order like Amazon is 100% reliable, no caravan ever gets robbed, no merchant ever vanishes with your deposit :)
noooooo :)
This is the reason I liked the term "CDM"... this person would be accepted by the HDMs across ALFA as a person with as much a trusted presence within the ALFA community as any other DM. Which is to say, the CDM COULD do it for anyone without approval (in my perfect world), but of course there would never be completely blind "transactions" between players and CDM ever anyway, the process could easily incorporate part of the procedure including infoming a DM about a request before starting a job!

Having one person per server in-the-know of course would be awesome. Like I initially suggested... a CDM on EACH Server, would also be really great. Right now there is not one official go-to person really. And DMs come and go. If the CDM decides to step down, he/she could let teh community know and a new one could step up, whatever, so this service could continue. If a DM normally does help a Player out in this regard, and that DM then quits DMing, that player must then look around and approach another DM if he/she needs help. Believe me, this is much harder than anyone might think. And while on paper the players requesting this help should be justified, since they spent very valuable feats to be able to do it, it is still hard to ask. And another player is spending in-game gold for a service that he/she "should(?)" get his or her money for?

It's not a "Waterdeep Walmart" system I was proposing at all :(. It was to facilitate PC to PC transfers - not for anyone to just PM the CDM, and ask an NPC somewhere to make and ship them an item.

Making the entire process quicker and easier for both parties involved of course should involve a DM... but, this way that DM would not have to have a toolset even... nor any knowledge of the pricing rules of ALFA, etc. The CDM on that server or the global CDM would have all that ready to go making whatever part of the whole procedure and process easier and faster for all involved.

Not only that the CDM most likely would start out as an item expert, which would be a invaluable asset for DMs and players in ALFA, and with some experience just get more and more knowledgeable with respect to all things gear related. As of now, if I want to know anything, I have to ask around maybe 2-3 people, and I get different answers usually about the price or approval possibilities of the SAME item.

With one CDM, there would not be any discrepancies about whether an item is A) Legal, or B) price in game and cost to craft/enchant.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by boombrakh »

Here's an idea. The "CDM" could be in charge to check the items for compliances, making sure they are priced correctly etc. Then create a DM-Avatar carrying the items and send it to the right person. That way "normal" DMs dont have to deal with the hassle of the toolset, checking prices, importing/exporting and muling. They simply copy the .bic to their /dmvault/ folder and login.

How's that?
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Galadorn
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Galadorn »

Yes sir, that is another restatement of another few OOC steps in the custom item or new magic item enchantment process a CDM can help out with, saving DMs time, and at the same time, acting as a valuable knowledgeable expert on such for anyone player or DM in the meantime. win win win, win win!
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Zelknolf »

Do we actually need any admin fiat to make this happen, then?


There's a DM with a request who approves the creation, runs any necessary in-character events, and actually moves the item into play, and the proposed post is really just an informed member with a toolset. I guess we could increase confidence in such a scheme along with reducing the actual grunty workload of toolsetting by offering training to folk who would like to-- certainly plenty of examples of toolsetting-focused training in ALFA's history.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Brokenbone »

I am not sure if a DM is being proposed here. I know Galadorn has lamented not knowing who to turn to on BG anymore, imports used to be lightning fast, that golden age is over. I think that's what this "global" proposal is about: fast customer service.

If peeling back the layers a bit, each server may handle things a little differently. Some places, HDM may "anoint" someone on their team as a pricing guru or whatever, possibly posting details of what's being added to the module as opposed to muling (TSM for instance), I do not know what goes on behind the curtain of every given server. There's a limited number of people I can name who know the price for pretty much anything off the top of head. I could look at dan on WHL, or say Zelknolf on MS, new join to TSM Kid, there's actually a lot of depth, all over the place. Mick also knows his stuff on BG.

Maybe the problem (if any?) is that teams don't necessarily publicize well who a first point of contact for crafting baloney ought to be?
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Ronan »

Like most things in ALFA, the trick is aligning know-how, motivation, free-time and permissions. These things need not all come from the same person, but they generally do with how we do things now.

As I see it:
  • Know-how: Crafters typically know how to price their own goods. Usually its enough for a knowledgeable DM to double-check their math (we really need a google spreadsheet for this, but I digress).
  • Motivation: Generally only the crafters. So we need to make the crafting process easier for everyone else.
  • Free-time: Generally the crafters, non-DMs and a smattering of DMs scattered around ALFA.
  • Permissions: Varies from server to server, though from a technical standpoint any server DM can mule in an item. Unfortunately we can no longer affect bics of quarantined (cross-server) PCs due to ACR changes.
...like many other things (e.g., our codebase) I think a wiki-style approach with no single bottleneck or bureaucrat able to hold things up works best. Free time and motivation vary too much for that approach to work.

Proposal: Crafting Queue
A forum thread where crafters post what they are crafting, its description, value, etc. They also attach a UTI (the item blueprint) of what they've made to each post. Anyone we deem knowledgeable can edit the post and add a "Item Legal!" stamp. Anyone who we deem trustworthy can approve the item on RP, balance, etc. grounds. Once it has both stamps (often by the same person I'd wager) any DM with access to the PC (which might be a PDM, CDM, ADM, whatever) can import the item. No need to restrict it to particular servers. If Castano says Bu crafted something at his workshop on MS but did not get a chance to get it in-game, I have no problem with that item being muled on BG.

This doesn't cover the corner case of item crafting with significant meta-information. In the future we might want a spiffy tool for this, and in theory tickets could be used in place of forum posts. Tickets might really be preferable since history is preserved even after the ticket is closed and goes away. Or you could have a crafting forum with a thread for each request.

I think the big advantages here are no single point of failure and all information is all in one place. No questions of "who approved it", "where is it", "is it priced right", etc. need be handled by the (often grumpy) mule DM.

For me approving items is easy. Getting them in-module (via git) is also easy. Getting them or checking them out in-game no so much; I have to actually start up NWN, which generally means being home at a reasonable hour. If I am home it means closing my work and rebooting (yay Eclipse, the IDE which needs the power of a modern gaming PC to run well...).

Edit: It'd actually be possible, and not terribly hard, to stick a UTI into a bic programmatically. I've done it manually a few times when I did not feel like starting up the toolset or sticking the item in the mod. The trouble would come with verifying the item's IG-price (which often varies from what the UTI might suggest, oddly) and that it does what its supposed to do. The ultimate tool would probably be one which let a player upload a UTI, automatically priced the item, then stuck that UTI in their bic as a crafting project which could only be worked on once it was granted DM approval. Our crafting system actually works on most anything, not just consumables.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by vergin_sacrifice »

I'd be lying if I did not say a lot of this is over my head.

My new character is going to be getting into crafting, and I started reading this stuff to get an idea of what to do.

Weighing in, my thoughts are simple.

Automated methods result in more across the board fair options. If it's an automation without table errors, no one can get something for less than is appropriate, or over powered. Exceptions would be requiring special dispensation and all the stages of review.

I personally, would just love to be able to use an automated system to craft expendables (ammo, wands/scrolls), skill items of +5 or less, or items that can cast once per day spells. Maybe I'm not seeing it, and that already exists. If so, please redirect my attention to where I should be looking.

If I can help.. I will. I'm pretty decent with spread sheets, if I have the rules I can put one together to predict the cost of items if it's needed.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Zelknolf »

vergin_sacrifice wrote:I personally, would just love to be able to use an automated system to craft expendables (ammo, wands/scrolls), skill items of +5 or less, or items that can cast once per day spells. Maybe I'm not seeing it, and that already exists. If so, please redirect my attention to where I should be looking.
Some of that exists, in varying capacities:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/node/2174

the short of it is that you can make cheap consumable spell-casting items without any interference from DMs, and DMs can make crafting projects for permanent magic things and have the extent of their involvement be taking money away from you and dropping a doodad to slowly work on. And mundane crafting is still run entirely manually.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by t-ice »

Zelknolf wrote:
vergin_sacrifice wrote:I personally, would just love to be able to use an automated system to craft expendables (ammo, wands/scrolls), skill items of +5 or less, or items that can cast once per day spells. Maybe I'm not seeing it, and that already exists. If so, please redirect my attention to where I should be looking.
Some of that exists, in varying capacities:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/node/2174

the short of it is that you can make cheap consumable spell-casting items without any interference from DMs, and DMs can make crafting projects for permanent magic things and have the extent of their involvement be taking money away from you and dropping a doodad to slowly work on. And mundane crafting is still run entirely manually.
Here's a thought: What if PCs could make crafting projects out of any item worth less than X gp (the X=4000 limit of items in shops comes to mind)? That way a crafter PC can't create a "ring of protection +1" out of thin air. BUT if they see and can study one, they can replicate it. Cue more RP for finding a PC with an item you want and persuading her to lend it. RP-wise the item should be in the possession of the crafter for a not insignificant time. Perhaps this could be incorporated to the system: While you work on the duplicate item, you must have the original in your inventory.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Brokenbone »

That horse is out of the barn t-ice. People often make items more efficient than any seen in stores, customized to "client needs" (or weaknesses as the case may be).

However, "research" roleplay requirements are open to any DM I suppose who wants to run a very thorough crafting experience. Not one that actually adds say, time or expense not justified by our rules, but as a way to be SPENDING that time or gold rather than say, alone in a room, somehow turning gold into nothingness. So a 2000gp retail Ring of Protection +1, ultimately that'll take 2 days of crafting, 1000gp and 80xp, I suppose a DM could have some RP at a wizardly "shop" where some of that 1000gp (say 100gp, who cares?) is spent on borrowing a sample ring under the proprietor's watchful eye to analyze it with various divinations, taking notes, bla bla bla. Maybe it'd take lots of social skill convincing to get someone to give a potential competitor a leg up, who knows? Maybe some XP award for overcoming that challenge? Who knows.

Who is exactly going to turn down 1 on 1 DM attention, unless it's really just the DM being a jerk and putting through the wringer for a cheap item, trying to "block" getting some little trinket. Our guidelines (the very old DM Driven Crafting admin thread) I think encourage some "challenges" to do 7500gp+ items, or items with 3 or more powers. *shrugs*
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Castano »

HDMs control what gets imported to their servers. If they wish to delegate this (or parts of it) to their DM team that is fine. I point out that DMA prohibits DMs from muling items onto servers, you must import a UTI file into the module. I agree with this, because it preserves my ability to monitor what is going on.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by wvincenti »

This is the first I've heard of this prohibition Castano and I understand the desire to maintain quality control.
That being said, what can be done to improve the flow of items into a server once they've been crafted?
I think the gist of Galadorn's proposal was to improve the process by which items get from the Toolset into the game.

Right now to my knowledge items are being crafted per the rules, RP and all, tooled up and then they sit and wait for a DM to import them into a server. Frequently the wait involves tracking down a DM who not only can import an item into a module, but is willing and has the time. It's at this point in the process that the process gets bogged down because it often takes weeks to get over this hurdle.

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Castano wrote:HDMs control what gets imported to their servers. If they wish to delegate this (or parts of it) to their DM team that is fine. I point out that DMA prohibits DMs from muling items onto servers, you must import a UTI file into the module. I agree with this, because it preserves my ability to monitor what is going on.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by t-ice »

Brokenbone wrote:That horse is out of the barn t-ice. People often make items more efficient than any seen in stores, customized to "client needs" (or weaknesses as the case may be).
Not unless under DM guidance, I would hope? It's the DM that makes the "project" item. (I've never used the current crafting system, but what I gathered from that readme on how it works. I would love to, though)

What I proposed was an extension to that, so that PCs could make some project items themselves, the straightforward stuff like wonderous items of +1/+2 stat, +1 equipment, +1AC items, +1 save bonus items, and the like.

Unique items with possibly complex properties should continue to be DM only.
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by vergin_sacrifice »

It seems like some good ideas here... I would like information so that I can make things work better for me. Yes, that's how it come out, it's all about me in the end. ;) But why not work better for everyone, and since ideas are being shared, here goes...

I am planning on being a crafter in game.
I should think that if someone is going to try to do this in game, the primary responsibility should fall to the player to make the item file / UTI that is proposed for approval of the HDM to be brought into the game and traded to the customer PC from the Crafter PC.

DMs have to be involved, but maybe more shared knowledge is better than more collected knowledge known by one person. Maybe those who are the most knowledgeable on the subject can pull together/collect/format some user friendly resources so that we all can make this easier to deal with. Then this could be debated/corrected and approved as the standard for ALFA, and kept up to date if any rules change. I am a low level user, so if I can understand what is put together, I can pretty well bet anyone could.

I would like to be able to see:
  • Clear Rules I can understand for how things are priced (XP & GP & Unique Materials)
    Clear Rules for what is allowed or not allowed to be made
    Clear Rules / instructions for submitting proposed items for approval
    Some sort of tutorial for how to set up and use the tool-set to make ALFA legal custom items.
The last, because as I said, the crafter should in my opinion be responsible for creating the file in the tool-set, so that their RP skill-set isn't a burden or the least burden possible on the DMs that volunteer their time to make things fun in ALFA. And because you who use the tool set for this already, can show us newbies how to get to what we need to without all the confusion of telling us about every other step for every other things. (the tool-set instructions made my head spin)


I might also suggest a selection of per-approved by all HDMs stock, commonly requested items be created that might one day be able to be made without a lot of dm interaction, many of which may already be available in stores, but a crafter could make on their own to compete with NPCs.
Things like:
  • Gloves that improve Strength or Dexterity
    Circlet that grants alternate Vision type
    Cloaks & Boots that improve Stealth
    Belts that improve health
    Non-equipped items like books that grant knowledge skill bonuses
    Baubles that can cast once per day spells
    Magic Bags
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Re: The Crafting Dungeon Master or "CDM"

Post by Ithildur »

That's a rather long wish list VS... can you, ahem, define 'clear' rules? We tend to have a bit of trouble with that in ALFA. :mrgreen:
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