I actually like this idea. It could even be present in game as some sort of roster to check that points you towards some (but not necessarily all) quests in that range. That people who are around a while know OOC invalidates all arguments of "meta", and we are not talking about pointing people to treasure troves full of dragon loot here.t-ice wrote:After all this blah blah, here's a suggestion that might help low-levels struggling to run the static gantlet:
Make a list of (almost) all the (low-level) static quests available, and rough estimate of CR (level of a party of 4 this would make a reasonable but almost surely overcomable challenge).
Why do I suggest such a blatant metagame act? Because "exploring to find the statics" is almost surely even more a blatant break of character. Those who have played Ultima surely know running the "name" "job" routine on every NPC. What a person would do IC is to go to a relevant place, say tavern, and chat to people to find who might be in need of what kind of help, and what would suit him/her. If there's a DM for that, great. Most surely there's not, however. Sometimes another PC could help, great. But a post of such in-world common knowledge for new players would help, so they can make-believe they heard about the static in a tavern rumor and go for it.
Let's face it, every old hand player knows that stuff already. And new players are constantly reminded how dangerous it is to explore and try things out. And how unpredictable and dangerous combat is and should be. And it should, under a DM event. For static content, old hand players know the rough CR of every quest and related monsters, whereas new PCs and players are maximally cowed to stay put and bored, or start over with a new PC.
So, there's a simple act to hopefully decrease new player attrition, make them stay long enough to get hooked on DM events.
Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
- CloudDancing
- Ancient Red Dragon
- Posts: 2847
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:31 am
- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
I say if a player wants to DM, let them DM.
Too many times roles are just handed over to people based on some distant past performance, being someones "friend", and not on their currently exhibited gameply abilities. Spending a month or two watching a players gameplay can tell you so much more about their state of mind.
Do they play a social interesting character that immediately takes up a team role and gest to know people? Or do the sit in a hole somewhere shunning everyone because their RP is not up to their standards? Do they throw fits and alienate everyone in their group? Are they respectful to the Dms and behave maturely?
After a month of observed and tested RP skills, showing proper respect for fellow players on an OC and IC level, and showing extreme maturity in dealing with the DMs, any player should be allowed to try the DM reigns as far as live DMing is concerned.
Building on the other hand is something I have strongly come to believe should not be put into the hands of new Dms. Learning to use the UI is hard enough. But the complex subtlies of organizing a complete mod are beyond most people without months of study or worse trial and error with lots of critical feedback. You think "oh ill just build some custom armor," but here that is not such an easy thing and that depends on the server you are on.
My thought, building distracts from Dming. The more time active live Dms are building the less time the spend Dming people. I spent most of my summer building twelve areas. ONE has made it in game with Keryn's mod changes seperate from my personal work. You don't know how frustrating that is because the work I did was character and gameplay generated. It distracted from my live DM time. The helplessness and frustration bled over into everything else. Plus I had to put my Elf Campaign on hold for three months while I waited.
Get rid of the building for Live Dms. Leave that to the HDM and subcontracted players. We need to keep the roles of building and live Dming seperate. As well "hopping" in items due to the fact that DM cannot be expected to wait six to nine months to see a custom item or plot device is ESSENTIAL. DMs cannot be expected to wait for their content or for their items.
As per exploits and cheating, it is up to the DMs and HDMS to catch these. I see wise players worry a lot about getting caught cheating. But cheating only comes on two occasions:
1. A Dm is idling or looking through the server logs and sees an inconsistancy because everything that is agaisnt the rules can be looked up immediately if someone takes the time.
2. You annoy a DM or you act in a manner that annoys another player OR arouses suspicion and a DM or DMA is notified to give you a full background check.
What happens next is...well I won't tell you what happens next.
Too many times roles are just handed over to people based on some distant past performance, being someones "friend", and not on their currently exhibited gameply abilities. Spending a month or two watching a players gameplay can tell you so much more about their state of mind.
Do they play a social interesting character that immediately takes up a team role and gest to know people? Or do the sit in a hole somewhere shunning everyone because their RP is not up to their standards? Do they throw fits and alienate everyone in their group? Are they respectful to the Dms and behave maturely?
After a month of observed and tested RP skills, showing proper respect for fellow players on an OC and IC level, and showing extreme maturity in dealing with the DMs, any player should be allowed to try the DM reigns as far as live DMing is concerned.
Building on the other hand is something I have strongly come to believe should not be put into the hands of new Dms. Learning to use the UI is hard enough. But the complex subtlies of organizing a complete mod are beyond most people without months of study or worse trial and error with lots of critical feedback. You think "oh ill just build some custom armor," but here that is not such an easy thing and that depends on the server you are on.
My thought, building distracts from Dming. The more time active live Dms are building the less time the spend Dming people. I spent most of my summer building twelve areas. ONE has made it in game with Keryn's mod changes seperate from my personal work. You don't know how frustrating that is because the work I did was character and gameplay generated. It distracted from my live DM time. The helplessness and frustration bled over into everything else. Plus I had to put my Elf Campaign on hold for three months while I waited.
Get rid of the building for Live Dms. Leave that to the HDM and subcontracted players. We need to keep the roles of building and live Dming seperate. As well "hopping" in items due to the fact that DM cannot be expected to wait six to nine months to see a custom item or plot device is ESSENTIAL. DMs cannot be expected to wait for their content or for their items.
As per exploits and cheating, it is up to the DMs and HDMS to catch these. I see wise players worry a lot about getting caught cheating. But cheating only comes on two occasions:
1. A Dm is idling or looking through the server logs and sees an inconsistancy because everything that is agaisnt the rules can be looked up immediately if someone takes the time.
2. You annoy a DM or you act in a manner that annoys another player OR arouses suspicion and a DM or DMA is notified to give you a full background check.
What happens next is...well I won't tell you what happens next.
- Blindhamsterman
- Haste Bear
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
- Location: GMT
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
my understanding of the use of statics is along Audarks, the main issue with static running as far as I knew was people completing all of the RM quests in an hour or so, which clearly was not the intent (and I don't think happens now anyway). I'd expect if players are RPing and not rushing through things it shouldn't be an issue to take a new one upon returning the last (infact IC, it's entirely likely you'd return the task and have the NPC tell you to go do the next thing without the tedious dialogue if it was real), and a DM giving grief over it is a little harsh IMO
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
The player doesn't need to know. The triggers in these places can be setup not to spawn for a lone player.Swift wrote:Difficult. With the way our NPCs are named (ie they dont have names) how would you know it was something that needed 2 or 3 people? The answer is, you would find out after you die. In case you are wondering, we don't have names on the majority of our mobs to try and make the combat you do have unpredictable. Is that archer just a regular grunt, or is he a much more dangerous threat than the ones running into melee?Dark_Wych wrote:1) Add more low level creatures that can't be solo'd but managed by two or three people so groups have something to do together and can gradually get more experience. At least more experience from sitting around talking all day gathering scripted increments or when alone, checking in on the game every now and then and typing something to get before mentioned increments. Not nessecarily for levels all around, but as a somewhat long time ALFA player and DnD veteran, nobody likes level 1. Help level 1s and 2s get off the ground a bit so they won't die if a stiff breeze hits them.
This prevents the lone lowbie from unintentionally wandering to their doom, as well as prevents the high level lone wolf farmers. Both of which are desirable, no?
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
There are a great many hurdles left to overcome, but it may very well be possible to seamlessly integrate the servers in such a way that they are indistinguishable to the end user.Swift wrote:The way NWN2 is made makes this 100% completely impossible. All three of our servers are pushing against the maximum size a NWN2 mod can be before it simply stops working (32bit architecture limitations). Merging would basically require us to absolutely gut every server. It would be awesome, but it simply cannot happen due to technical limitations.5) Final proposal: Merge all the servers together. Yes, I know all the servers are different based on their timezones. But really, wouldn't it be easier to maintain one single server with one single system and have all of the player base in one location? I don't know the logistics of everything, but having three people on one server, two people on another and one on the last server is just ridiculous. Not to mention there would be more DM coverage of the one server which solves all four previous proposals in one swept stroke.
I'm not so sure ALFA would embrace the single meta-server approach even if it became possible. It would diminish server/HDM autonomy and leave DMs unable to play without changes to the rules. Not something anyone will have to grapple with in the near future.
I think she may have been talking about something else, though.
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
Regarding the static stackign rule (just to throw some further confusing into it), there is no ALFA wide rule that says "Do not stack statics". Wynna and Curm made a rule like that for TSM. For the rest of ALFA, the simple "Do not Powergame" covers it quite nicely. If you are doing something stupid and OOC just for gp/xp, think again. If it makes sense to go hunting for berries in the woods for NPC X at the same time that you are searching for mushrooms for NPC Y, then all the power to you.
Also, as Audark said, we (what do I mean "we"? I should say "they" now) do often approach players about DMing. I know I have suggested it to a fair few players over the years. Maybe an average of once a month.
Also, as Audark said, we (what do I mean "we"? I should say "they" now) do often approach players about DMing. I know I have suggested it to a fair few players over the years. Maybe an average of once a month.
< Signature Free Zone >
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
I'll take a moment and gloat here abit, as this freedom of DM buildership is essential at Exodus/Amn If the DM is willing to devote the effort to build his/her own NPCs, areas and items for his/her plots, then of course. It brings that much more to the game, and relatively simply so. And with the autoDLer, they can be quickly swapped into the server. Also DMs are allowed to mule in items with the avatar trick. Because of javajutsu's dedication with the Exodus server, typical time to see content in has been in hours.Cloud_Dancing wrote:
Building on the other hand is something I have strongly come to believe should not be put into the hands of new Dms. Learning to use the UI is hard enough. But the complex subtlies of organizing a complete mod are beyond most people without months of study or worse trial and error with lots of critical feedback. You think "oh ill just build some custom armor," but here that is not such an easy thing and that depends on the server you are on.
My thought, building distracts from Dming. The more time active live Dms are building the less time the spend Dming people. I spent most of my summer building twelve areas. ONE has made it in game with Keryn's mod changes seperate from my personal work. You don't know how frustrating that is because the work I did was character and gameplay generated. It distracted from my live DM time. The helplessness and frustration bled over into everything else. Plus I had to put my Elf Campaign on hold for three months while I waited.
Get rid of the building for Live Dms. Leave that to the HDM and subcontracted players. We need to keep the roles of building and live Dming seperate. As well "hopping" in items due to the fact that DM cannot be expected to wait six to nine months to see a custom item or plot device is ESSENTIAL. DMs cannot be expected to wait for their content or for their items.
It really comes down to what someone said few months back here: "bring the Master back to the DM". We trust the DMs with the lives of our PCs, to run all aspects of the game fair and balanced. Limiting their abilities only hampers what we're here for, to have fun playing the game.
That said, power and trust should always come with responsibility and verification. There's a simple way we do this at Exodus/Amn, one I haven't seen on ALFA side (or maybe I just don't have forum access to). That's a DM journal. The DMs are the Masters of the game allowed to use their full creativity, but the requirement is that they write down what they do, preferably already at planning stage for major things, but at minimum after the fact. And then subject to peer review, with the mind to tone down in the future if overshot, and that everyone (including players) need to understand that absolutely blatant overshootings can be ret-conned.
This is getting somewhat off-topic, but perhaps a "best of both worlds" approach to DMing would help keep the ranks of DMs fuller across the board? Nothing is more de-moralizing to a DM than to see his hard-though content fall flat on "red tape", but then again, we need to have certain semblance of balance and fairness so that it's still the same world under different DMs. I don't claim to have magic bullets, but ideas and discussion are always welcome.
- CloudDancing
- Ancient Red Dragon
- Posts: 2847
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:31 am
- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
That is a refreshing viewpoint. And one of the things I personally left as my legacy(which many Dms have NOT in the past thus allowing some serious grey areas in regards to PRC awards and characters bios) its a well detailed DM journal as well as updated many bios.
Yet, that only works IF someone reads it. I ended up repeating myself often and dealing with things I did weeks later, that were amply detailed. As well I have had to repeat myself to new Dms who did not take the time to read the bios of the characters I knew so well.
Yet, that only works IF someone reads it. I ended up repeating myself often and dealing with things I did weeks later, that were amply detailed. As well I have had to repeat myself to new Dms who did not take the time to read the bios of the characters I knew so well.
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
I like both that DMs would document and that DMs are the arbiters of the game... but as always, the devil is in the details.
Sigh...
Sigh...
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
- CloudDancing
- Ancient Red Dragon
- Posts: 2847
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:31 am
- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
One of the KEY characteristics to Exodus which I think all players might appreciate in Alfa is their attention to characters and development of the characters as well as friendly personal interaction with the Dms that I experienced.
My enjoyment on Exo came from a deep transparency between the Dm/Player relationship which stems from allowing Dms to play on their own servers and respecting as mature adults we won't abuse that power by power-leveling/twinking ourselves.
My enjoyment on Exo came from a deep transparency between the Dm/Player relationship which stems from allowing Dms to play on their own servers and respecting as mature adults we won't abuse that power by power-leveling/twinking ourselves.
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
Accepting DMs just for the sake of doing it is no good!
We do need DMs not wannabes, and I don't want to insult anyone or cause any ill feelings, but the fun factor a player gets for playing in ALFA and be DMed in this type of game play comes exactly from the type of DMing that we find here.
DMing that is mature, consequential, and makes sense regarding the setting and the events in the server.
I believe more and more in what Mirabai advocates which is to help our players that wish to DM, and teach that how to DM. The perception a player has from the PC side is 99% of the time incorrect, and there are processes that one must follow to make sure that we are coherent and enhance the game play instead of simply provide "something" that compensates in the end due to a XP hit and a reward in gold or items...
It gets old quick and the excitement of the reward vanishes to give way to a bad feeling. So looking for DMs yes, but not accepting them blindly YES. And for those who think they know how to DM even though their experience is limited, think again, seek an experienced DM and learn something, I myself saw this by DMing with Sanderman, many things I thought I knew... meh I was a rookie LoL Takes a bit of humble pie though...
We do need DMs not wannabes, and I don't want to insult anyone or cause any ill feelings, but the fun factor a player gets for playing in ALFA and be DMed in this type of game play comes exactly from the type of DMing that we find here.
DMing that is mature, consequential, and makes sense regarding the setting and the events in the server.
I believe more and more in what Mirabai advocates which is to help our players that wish to DM, and teach that how to DM. The perception a player has from the PC side is 99% of the time incorrect, and there are processes that one must follow to make sure that we are coherent and enhance the game play instead of simply provide "something" that compensates in the end due to a XP hit and a reward in gold or items...
It gets old quick and the excitement of the reward vanishes to give way to a bad feeling. So looking for DMs yes, but not accepting them blindly YES. And for those who think they know how to DM even though their experience is limited, think again, seek an experienced DM and learn something, I myself saw this by DMing with Sanderman, many things I thought I knew... meh I was a rookie LoL Takes a bit of humble pie though...
<Kest> "what am i running away from? i dont know but it sounds big and large!!"
---
<@Veilan> I like sausage.
---
<@Veilan> I like sausage.
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
Alot of people say DM when you want to...that's fine, but we need a core group of DMs to commit to once a week DMing at a set time. Games can be 2-3 hours. Without a core group of DMs willing to commit to regular sessions, we can't do this thing we call ALFA.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
- Blindhamsterman
- Haste Bear
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
- Location: GMT
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
we should promote getting as many folk as we can to agree to DM on a server they don't play, once a month.
That'd make a HUGE difference.
And yeah, if DMs can commit to a weekly session it makes life easier, many can't commit to the same time each week, but in the past most have at least tried to log in at least once a week.
That'd make a HUGE difference.
And yeah, if DMs can commit to a weekly session it makes life easier, many can't commit to the same time each week, but in the past most have at least tried to log in at least once a week.
Standards Member
Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
<Heero>: yeah for every pc ronan has killed dming, paazin has killed 2 with his spawns
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
Lets put few things on the table...
With no DMs around, the game would become boring very quickly , even to new players. Dynamic and changing content should be the heart every game that wants to be defined as "Role playing game". Doing the same things over and over again can work until some point, but doing the same static for the 10th time in your life, with your 7th character, just with a "different" group(which are oocly the same people) , does not ALWAYS bring the best RP result.
RPing the "Oh, those goblins sent scout AGAIN..." for the billion time when you do static 1 in Rivermoot, can only work for limited number of times and actually provide fun RP, after a while you run out of excuses for the situation.
Do not get me wrong, statics are excellent , and i know people invested a lot of time building them.
But they should not replace DM presence.
And the statics are just one example, of course it's becoming boring to speak with the same characters over and over again, hearing their(same) story, because no new experiences and dynamic content was provided to them , so they return and speak on the same things.
Same for 'exploring' places, likes caves or whatever for fighting, it's becoming boring.
Bored people might be drifted to all kind of negative behaviors, which most likely is caused by their frustration, they want to play the game, but after a while, they are not sure what more can be done. Farming, powergaming, metagaming and out of character behaviors might all be resulted from that(in some cases).
Did not check the facts, but i'm quite sure in what i say now. If we'll check on all PCs , we'll find out that those who are given regular DM time are less involved in actives like farming and static grinding.
There are some regular PCs that Tris DMs in his regular Skaug sessions, i gamble they are less involved in farming and such and as players they must be more satisfied on average than others. Of course that on the average people who get 2 DM sessions in a year, would be involved more in farming.
We want RP , that's the slogan here. If we want RP , we must reward RP , the only way to reward RP is by DMing and providing adventures. Players feel involved, and their action matters, that's their feedback.
That's why i say it plain and clean, if some established players around want to be a DMs , let them. The technical side is not issue here, and can be dealt with in few days at most. Of course, relevant skills , like knowing the server settings should be considered, but lets no make "DMing" an elite unit standards acceptation process.
There are so few who willing to do so anyhow.....the benefits of actually gaining a good DM are much higher than the risks and damages a "bad" DM can cause, because most things are reversible and every DM can be kicked out if he sucks...
There is another issue here, something that is still not clear to me. Lots of DMs give up after a while, and i think that besides Swift i can't not think on one DM who's been in the role for more than few months. I think this issue worth to spend some time on for itself...
With no DMs around, the game would become boring very quickly , even to new players. Dynamic and changing content should be the heart every game that wants to be defined as "Role playing game". Doing the same things over and over again can work until some point, but doing the same static for the 10th time in your life, with your 7th character, just with a "different" group(which are oocly the same people) , does not ALWAYS bring the best RP result.
RPing the "Oh, those goblins sent scout AGAIN..." for the billion time when you do static 1 in Rivermoot, can only work for limited number of times and actually provide fun RP, after a while you run out of excuses for the situation.
Do not get me wrong, statics are excellent , and i know people invested a lot of time building them.
But they should not replace DM presence.
And the statics are just one example, of course it's becoming boring to speak with the same characters over and over again, hearing their(same) story, because no new experiences and dynamic content was provided to them , so they return and speak on the same things.
Same for 'exploring' places, likes caves or whatever for fighting, it's becoming boring.
Bored people might be drifted to all kind of negative behaviors, which most likely is caused by their frustration, they want to play the game, but after a while, they are not sure what more can be done. Farming, powergaming, metagaming and out of character behaviors might all be resulted from that(in some cases).
Did not check the facts, but i'm quite sure in what i say now. If we'll check on all PCs , we'll find out that those who are given regular DM time are less involved in actives like farming and static grinding.
There are some regular PCs that Tris DMs in his regular Skaug sessions, i gamble they are less involved in farming and such and as players they must be more satisfied on average than others. Of course that on the average people who get 2 DM sessions in a year, would be involved more in farming.
We want RP , that's the slogan here. If we want RP , we must reward RP , the only way to reward RP is by DMing and providing adventures. Players feel involved, and their action matters, that's their feedback.
That's why i say it plain and clean, if some established players around want to be a DMs , let them. The technical side is not issue here, and can be dealt with in few days at most. Of course, relevant skills , like knowing the server settings should be considered, but lets no make "DMing" an elite unit standards acceptation process.
There are so few who willing to do so anyhow.....the benefits of actually gaining a good DM are much higher than the risks and damages a "bad" DM can cause, because most things are reversible and every DM can be kicked out if he sucks...
There is another issue here, something that is still not clear to me. Lots of DMs give up after a while, and i think that besides Swift i can't not think on one DM who's been in the role for more than few months. I think this issue worth to spend some time on for itself...
Re: Have I got a Proposal for ALFA
the big and fabolous E, Arkan, Mysty, Wynnarorax wrote:.....i can't not think on one DM who's been in the role for more than few months. I think this issue worth to spend some time on for itself...
to name a few
A.K.A Pee Dee
past PC: Maha Tari, aka. Alinia Mountain curiousity killed the cat
All those moments, lost in time.
Like tears in the rain.
Time to die.
past PC: Maha Tari, aka. Alinia Mountain curiousity killed the cat
All those moments, lost in time.
Like tears in the rain.
Time to die.