Proposal system has failed - server selection team disolve

For discussion and formation of server proposals and teams.
Rick7475
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Proposal system has failed - server selection team disolve

Post by Rick7475 »

This system has failed ALFA miserably.

We have 1 current NWN2 server that is progressing. Another that may progress. And the rest dead in the water with builders slipping away every month.

We are now passed 6 months into NWN2 and our NWN2 servers are failing.

Now, if it is the intention of ALFA that we have 1 or 2 NWN2 servers, then so be it. We have succeeded, ignore this thread.



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If it is our intention to have more, then read on.


The server selection team needs to be disolved or reduced to three people. The results of the server slections has been that we have lost talented and valuable builders. While still have in house some very talented builders and technical people, it is not enough. The NWN2 toolset makes mod building more difficult and longer.


We should redo the server selection team to three people, redo the proposal criteria to a page summery of intent, and poll all the current proposals for their current staff to see if they meet the 'old standards'. If they do not meet the 'old criteria' anymore, they should be disbanded or be placed on probabtion.

We should then re-open the server selections again. This time with more realisitic criteria, now that we know that the difficulty for building a module is more than what was anticipated. The criteria should be based on passed experience and loyalty to ALFA, not how well you can write a proposal and how many names you can list that disappear 3 months after acceptance.

I would even go so far as to say that anyone on the build list has to have a proven record of buuilding in NWN1 or on a current NWN2 project. Any NWN2 project that has met a beta goal would be excempt from the server selection, or any server that has built a considerable amount of areas (over 30) with at least 3 current members that are activily planning or building might also be considered for exemption.

We should also reach out to those that we have forced out of building and let them have a chance once again to build.


If you want ALFA to succeed, we need to rethink what we are building for NWN2.
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Post by HEEGZ »

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed with the status of things. I would say the toolset is to blame, and that I'm also curious what Rusty thinks.
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Post by Rick7475 »

I should also clarify, I am not pointing fingers, I am saying what we have is not working. NWN2 servers are not getting built to the numbers we initially anticpated. Things need to be re-evaluated, stream-lined, simplified, and so on.

The first thing to be redone is the server selection process.

The second is to get builders to stay and build.

Personally, I think the ALFA plan for server numbers is a good target, but now that we are at a cross roads, how do we get there?


Anyway, we need change.
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Post by Rusty »

The biggest difficulty faced by the build teams is entirely beyond ALFA’s control; namely, NWN2 itself. A complex toolset and an incomplete program make the process of server development vastly more difficult than might have been hoped. On a central content level, our efforts are seriously hampered by 2da/tlk related problems, and although Obsidian are still releasing patches (the next is imminent), the fixes CC need are being pushed back. That said, the latest patch should include some significant additions for builders, including as it does some important toolset improvements. ALFA’s progress is slow, but, given the circumstances, that is to be expected. Moreover, let us consider just how long NWN1 took to reach Live status – more time than has elapsed since the release of the vastly more complicated NWN2. On a brighter note, we have made some significant process with our CC: many basic scripts have been rolled out and we have already many hundred standardised ALFA creatures and doors available for builders. The ruleset edits and refinements required by the new game are under consideration. We know what we need to do and we are making steady progress towards that goal

I do not think anyone would insist that ALFA’s NWN2 planning was perfect. Inevitably, attempts to predict the nature and demands of the game were not entirely accurate. However, one of the major strengths of the system was that it required teams to develop the kind of detailed plans that are essential to the construction of a coherent, consistent mod. The ongoing role of the SST has been defined in the Beta Stages Programme; the intent, at least, is for it to provide qualitative analysis of mod development to guide DMA. It is worth noting that, following the initial wave of proposals, future server approval is at DMA discretion rather than at that of the SST. That said, I do not believe that the briefest of summaries of intent constitutes sufficient planning for DMA to have confidence in a proposal. My personal expectation of any proposal to build a NWN2 server is not likely to vary significantly from the requirements set out in the initial application process. Experience and loyalty are commendable characteristics, and must inevitably play their part in the analysis of any proposal, but they are but part of the broader requirements needed by a successful NWN2 team. The idea that past NWN1 builders, irrespective of merit, are green-lighted for NWN2 servers has little to commend it. What does commend itself, however, is the active participation of experienced builders in the developing NWN2 servers, and there is nothing to inhibit this development.

Concerning the current status of the NWN2 teams, I am in fairly regular contact with them. Currently, I am collecting feedback from the team leaders with the goal of presenting a broad update to the community. I am developing a proposal to encourage Beta testing and participation with the goal of strengthening interest in NWN2 and providing some early, visible reward for builders. Generally, progress is mixed. Some servers have made good ground while others have barely begun the construction process. In no instance, however, has it been the case that the server selection process has been responsible for this. Rather, the cause is the toolset, it’s complexity, and the consequent lack of builders. The current situation is certainly a matter for concern, but I do not believe that the analysis provided by Rick is accurate. There is nothing preventing any willing builder from approaching one of the eight proposals and helping their development. There is nothing preventing any team of builders from submitting an application to build an entirely new server. Moreover, consolidation between teams is thoroughly encouraged, and when the current consultation process is complete, I shall be investigating what can be done to aid this, but to lay all our (exaggerated) woes at the foot of a now redundant selection process is mistaken.
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Post by NickD »

I still think the way we should have gone forward should have been to have a single mod, open to all builders willing to stick to the building standards to join.

This would have allowed people to work together co-operatively on a single project learning things together and with a strong incentive for everyone to help each other out. Losing builders by the wayside would have been less of an issue, because it would have 10 times as many builders working on the module.

And it would eventually have become the Base Mod and also somewhere for people to play while the other servers were being built using the Base Mod as a template, rather than 8 different teams starting everything from scratch.

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Post by Aelred »

What Rusty says makes sense. If anyone out there had real interest in building they would certainly have jumped on the boat and stayed. Changing the server selection process isnt going to spark any more interest in people. The toolset will stilll be the same.

At the same time, Rick, I think your posts and attempts to raise the building spirit will indeed begin to change things. The more people see a real need for building the more chances people will step up.

I for one am still plugging away all by my lonesome on my Essembra area in MD. Speaking personally if there was another person building with me, it would help me stay more motivated. I am however commited to seeing the MD server get built.

So how can we motivate the community? And spur interest in building?
Since brainstorming is usually a good thing - one idea we might be able to do is offer some sort of bonus for the builder's future first PC. We all love and invest so much of ourselves in our PCs that any gift for the PC would be like a gift to ourselves.

(The following is just some brainstorming...I'm not proposing or pushing for anything really)

How about free XP for their future PCs? Honestly I bet the peeps would jump at that idea! Or all who have contributed significantly to a server earn a bonus to automatically begin at lvl 2. Or how about a free class related magic item to be decided by the DMs of the server you play on?
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Post by ç i p h é r »

I like your thoughts on incentives Aelred. There are a lot of players here that might jump at the opportunity to give their fledgling PCs a boost, if they intend to play NWN2.

I agree with Rusty that the SST isn't the problem, unless there's something more behind the scenes I'm not aware of. Having a project full of undermanned build teams however is a big problem. What I'd like to see us do is figure out how to all come together in a way that we feel is still rewarding individually.
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Post by Rick7475 »

Well, as an old OO software guy, to help build teams, it sure would be nice if we had some areas that were avail as templates for re-use.

For example, Alred is doing an superb job with forests, if he could put a few templates or examples in a DM FTP it might save others some work on forests.

I can put up my sewer templates.

Generic WD streets for urban centers.

Rural roads.

That sort of thing.

Forests and some types of exterior terrain are a pain in the ass to keep doing over and over again in the new toolset. If we had some templates that we just copy and customize, it would save builders a lot of time.

It might also mean a little bit of consistency.

That is what we did on DF to make the roads.


Just some start up thoughts.
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Post by darrenhfx »

I'm glad that this subject is being discussed, I've felt the same frustrations and talking about it is at least a start.

I'll think a bit more before I post my ideas.
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Post by Rotku »

I can certainly see where your concerns are coming from Rick. The levels of building are quite not what any of us would have liked to see, but I fear that as Rusty points out that one of the biggest problems here has been the difficulties involved with the toolset - I know it's certainly put me off rushing out and buying a new computer after my last one died.

The biggest problem I have felt with the selection method was that it was misunderstood by many people - this is one of the reasons that I wanted the SST forum to be publically viewable, but then even by then prehaps it was too late. What I found through reading the criticisms about the selection process and through chatting with some people who did feel a bit disenheartened by it, was that people had somehow formed the view that some huge, multipage proposal was required for people to even be considered. This is not true.

One of the main purposes of the selection process is that it forced teams to have done some planning and research before hand. It showed that these people were committeed to these areas that they had chosen, unlike what I imagin happened with NWN1, where hundreds of servers were designated only to be disbanned very quickly. This planning before hand is also very important as it should help the process further down the track.

If you take a look back at Neverwinter Nights and the time that it took us to go Live, you will see that the progress we are making is fairly good. NWN was released midyear 2002, yet it wasn't until around May 2003 (correct me if I'm wrong) that we went Live - and that was after how many years of planning before NWN was even released? The only difference we currently face is the scale of production. Instead of having 20 odd servers heading slowly towards Live, we may have only five or so*.

This may, however, not necessarily be a bad thing. One of the goals the previous Admin were aiming for when they set down the plan of attack for NWN2 was to have a only a few servers go Live to start with. By complete chance (natural selection, if you like), this seems to be what is going to happen anyway. I am not saying that I think that this approch is a good or bad thing, but the release of a small number of servers is the way that ALFA decided that it was best to approch NWN2.


*But even here, I would seriously suggest waiting until Rusty gives us a progress update before shouting out any numbers.
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Post by Rick7475 »

I don't mind Rusty givin us a progress report :)

The main reason for this thread was to start talkin. And we are.
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Post by indio »

Here's a way to do it:

Exterior Team - 3 builders
Interiors Team (infrastructure) - 3 builders

These two teams can be assigned to any project either for a kick-start or for a consolidation. They produce one exterior or three interiors, depending on their job, as defined by the HDM of the project being supported. Then they move on to the next job.

Now if Aeldred, Teric and I built exteriors (and really these are just the names of people who are posting exterior screens) and three other active builders (Rick, Darren & Than) took these jobs, we could have 3 or 4 servers really moving within a month.

What it would allow is for the core areas to be readied for beta testing. Populating and scripting these servers would fall to the project builders, or maybe there's another team to be formed that could handle it?

And that's where I think momentum can really form...once teams are in beta.
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Post by Rotku »

I must admit that I am starting to like the sounds of that. My fears about a standard team before was that everything would end up looking the same, but by now I would imagin that all the planning and everything has been done so we are just at a stage where the building is required. I know if I was working on a project it woudl really remotivate me if suddenly a handful of people offered to help build an area each.

I think this is something that we can really get going. Rick, do you think you are able to approch some of the more active builders and gauge their interest about forming a small group to help kickstart these projects? Of course, it would pay, once again, to wait 'til Rusty's update is out, so we know where to focus on and, of course, if such a group is really needed.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Forming a build process around individual specialization - urban, wilderness, rural, caves, interiors, etc - might be a better compromise between a single team and templates, provided builders are willing to contribute in this fashion. We already have the visions and the plans, and we already have the talent. We just lack synergy.

In other words, what I am suggesting is that we pool our builder talent by specialization and determine their priority according to an ALFA server release schedule. This preserves the good aspects of the current structure - oversight, vision, plans - while addressing the resource shortage by refocusing our efforts.

Just another idea.
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Post by Aelred »

Sharing generic interiors seems logical and will add variety to our servers. Is there a place where we could actually share them though? Could we use the ALFA FTP?

But regarding exteriors...it doesn't seem to me to be as easy. First of all we have to match the canon details - so generic towns would be out seeing as most towns already have canon maps that are very specific. A generic forest area seems sort of possible but my question is - Shouldnt the borders match the adjacent areas for convincing ATs? You would still have to begin in one area and move out area by area to make the edges match height wise. (Or is there a plugin that will copy the edges and match them height wise with an adjacent area?)

Would helping build other servers mean we would become builders for those servers too? A big concern to mention is that if several of us end up building for ALL the servers then where will be allowed to play :? ?
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