xp for regular dm'ing

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
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Castano
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Castano »

Swift wrote:Can I get a monthly XP bonus just for being a member?
No. I'd rather remove RPXP and now that I read this thread I'm thinking we remove all XP sources that are not called for in the DnD source books.
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Xanthea
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Xanthea »

Remove all xp entirely.
Khazar Stoneblood
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Khazar Stoneblood »

Castano wrote:as for those opposed to a trickle of DM XP...ponder this...RPXP trickles in for cyber (and the more graphically descriptive and longer the session the more they get - sorry fade to blackers that only gets you 1 tick on the meter). Nobody should be getting any XP points for that...

I'd rather see RPXP removed if we are gonna talk about purity. The only justification offered for it is it makes people log in. Which would be the same justification for DM XP.

I think that "making people log in" is a decent enough justification. Heck even if they're logging in for cyber, a DM could always see it and decide to spawn a bunch of pixies that fly in and mock them while they're in the act or a ghost that is ticked off that the PC's are doing the nasty in the spot they departed from.

I just don't know why xp would make someone log in as a DM RATHER then as a player. Those motivated by XP would seem to be focused more on their PC's development then anything else as XP really doesn't matter for anything other then developing your character. And if that's the case, they'd seem likely to always choose to log in as a player to focus on their PC's development since that development is what drives them.
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kid
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by kid »

I already said it before... but i'll say it again.

I don't have much time to play these days. So the time I have I enjoy helping my dude to a small amount of XP, pushing him ever so slightly to the next level (for some reason that gives me joy. why? i've no fucking clue nor do I care)
Now, if I know i've 2-3 hours a week in which I can play and I choose to DM in those hours my dude will never advance in anyway. That (for the same unknown reason) would make me slightly sad.

However if I know that I'll be getting some minimal reward for the hours I put in as a DM this would increase the likelyhood that i'll log and play with someone, create a small advanture, or help with this or that.

Why?
Becuase I do enjoy DMing, RP etc.
I do enjoy helping folks and aiding in the manufacturing of fun.
And becuase I'd know that even if my dude wont be getting the same XP as he would if I logged to play he would get something, which (again for a mystical and unknown reason) is something i'd like.

So, im not sure how many DMs are there in my position, and im uncertain what issues of moral or purity we're talking about here. i can only testify from my own expiriance.
Is that worth the tech work/rule change? i've no clue. I'll leave that to the proper admins.
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Ithildur
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Ithildur »

If you've limited time, then you choose what to do with that time; simple as that. Play or DM. Choice. Consequences. If you enjoy DMing, then DM. If you want to RP your character, then log in as player. Pretty straight forward, not complicated.

People feel entitled to have their cake and eat it too constantly these days.
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kid
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by kid »

Hey, i've no requests, Im fine just playing every now and then.
It's up to the admins to decide whats more beneficial for the community.
Was just answering Khazar's question.
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Khazar Stoneblood
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Khazar Stoneblood »

kid wrote:Hey, i've no requests, Im fine just playing every now and then.
It's up to the admins to decide whats more beneficial for the community.
Was just answering Khazar's question.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to develop a character. The progression a PC makes, both through accumulating power and ability (as measured largely by levels) and by wealth and ifluence (as measured largely by gold) is a big part of what makes role playing fun. But usually that goes with developing the PC through role play... just getting XP and gold isn't very rewarding in the long run.

If you're geared that way, then I'm not sure that in the end (after the novelty wore off from getting XP while DMing) those with that motivation wouldn't go back to primarily playing. Because advancement without character development through playing that PC will usually end up getting pretty shallow for most I think.

My PC is level 4... and he's had many events shape his behavior and personality in game already. Many of those will probably influence how I play the PC the rest of his life. That includes DM'd time, playing with a group with no DM and playing solo. If I had gotten the PC to level 4 with 30% coming from time logged in DMing rather then playing the PC and I had lost 30% of that development, he wouldn't be nearly as rich a character for me. Same stats... but not anywhere near as engaging a character for me.

In the end, my guess would be that those who are motivated by individual character development for their PC are going to gravitate toward playing rather then DMing with equal XP for doing both. That's NOT a bad thing. It's certainly not a criticism. And frankly I may gravitate in that direction as well. It's not like we don't need players too.

My guess is that what makes people want to DM rather then play has more to do with being the architect of a story. More of the playwright rather then a player of a part (even if we as players do get to craft our parts to a large degree). But you also have to be a playwright willing to let the players possibly change or derail your story to a degree... and frankly I can see why so few seem to pursue it ahead of playing.

Honestly, I wonder if recruiting DM's from those who are the prolific contributors to the library might not be the way to go. Those people have obviously shown a desire to be a story-teller. Perhaps they might have interest in having a more direct role in crafting the stories as well?

Anyway... I'm just brainstorming. I don't mean to suggest my thoughts are somehow "right". They're just thoughts.
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Xanthea
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Xanthea »

Starting at level 1 is not at all essential for character development. In fact, it's rather restrictive to people who want to play something other than "fresh faced greenhorn".

In fact, I think the possibility of someone playing very little and using their DMxp to start off with a seasoned veteran level 5 character who has a backstory of having seen and done a lot of things in their day would be pretty cool.
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kid
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by kid »

I agree with the effect on low level, Khazar.
My dude is somewhere over ten so it's less of an effect. but aye, back when I was DMing a lot it would have sucked to level my toon to level 2 or 3 without playing.
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Khazar Stoneblood
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Khazar Stoneblood »

Xanthea wrote:Starting at level 1 is not at all essential for character development. In fact, it's rather restrictive to people who want to play something other than "fresh faced greenhorn".

In fact, I think the possibility of someone playing very little and using their DMxp to start off with a seasoned veteran level 5 character who has a backstory of having seen and done a lot of things in their day would be pretty cool.
Well... the problem being that every seasoned veteran started as a "fresh faced greenhorn" at some point. And the fact is that life experience does NOT equal character level. In most FR armies, the grizzled sergeant who's served for years is probably just a level 1 fighter... maybe level 2. Those concepts work fine as a level 1 PC.

Level 1 in a PC class (anything other then Commoner, Aristocrat, Adept or Warrior) are already a cut above. They aren't necessarily green. They can be a talented young person... or a common person who through long experience and grit elevated themselves to a "player class" level of abilty.

Higher levels don't represent regular life experience. They represent "heroic" (or "anti-heroic") accomplishment and achievement. And that should happen in game I think, not "off camera" as backstory. My player group has a "grizzled vet" PC who started at level 1. And he was a grizzled vet at level 1 too with no problems.

You can't start as an established hero as a player. I don't think that's a problem. It doesn't mean you have to be green though. Just because you can't slay an ogre signle handed doesn't mean you're green.
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Zelknolf
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Zelknolf »

Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Well... the problem being that every seasoned veteran started as a "fresh faced greenhorn" at some point. And the fact is that life experience does NOT equal character level. In most FR armies, the grizzled sergeant who's served for years is probably just a level 1 fighter... maybe level 2. Those concepts work fine as a level 1 PC.
This isn't quite accurate, and we actually have plenty of canon to go off of here, which is even very stable between campaign settings (on account of D&D's roots as a war game, rather than as a role playing game)--
Dude fresh out of boot camp (fills the ranks) = about level 1
Dude who is slightly above the chattle (about 1 in 10) = about level 3
Dude who stands out as exceptional (about 1 in 20) = about level 5
Dude who is regarded as the best among a circle of acquaintances (about 1 in 100) = about level 7
Higher-level NPCs tend to be rare enough that they get named and explicitly described in whatever the source material is. At level 10, you count as "legendary" for the purposes of determining if, for example, knowing about folk is just common knowledge locally or if spells like Legend Lore work on a person.

And we also have things like the Leadership feat and rules for hireling/ follower/ cohort advancement, which makes it clear that NPCs do gain levels from life experience. They usually level in NPC classes, mind (Commoner, Warrior. Adept, Aristocrat), but level up they do.
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Xanthea
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Xanthea »

Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Higher levels don't represent regular life experience. They represent "heroic" (or "anti-heroic") accomplishment and achievement. And that should happen in game I think, not "off camera" as backstory.
Yeah I don't think that's completely accurate. While there is certainly a level at which people are "legendary adventuring heroes" and a backstory explaining that would be a bit of a stretch... that level isn't level 2. Veteran or elite troops aren't going to be puttering around at level 1 for their entire lives.

It's not a huge issue, obviously, and the server can survive just fine without offering support to some backstories, but neither do I think it would be a huge loss if there was a way for a rarely played character to get a few levels before being played either. To me it opens up more potential for unique RP, it doesn't close it off.
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Khazar Stoneblood »

Zelknolf wrote:
Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Well... the problem being that every seasoned veteran started as a "fresh faced greenhorn" at some point. And the fact is that life experience does NOT equal character level. In most FR armies, the grizzled sergeant who's served for years is probably just a level 1 fighter... maybe level 2. Those concepts work fine as a level 1 PC.
This isn't quite accurate, and we actually have plenty of canon to go off of here, which is even very stable between campaign settings (on account of D&D's roots as a war game, rather than as a role playing game)--
Dude fresh out of boot camp (fills the ranks) = about level 1
Dude who is slightly above the chattle (about 1 in 10) = about level 3
Dude who stands out as exceptional (about 1 in 20) = about level 5
Dude who is regarded as the best among a circle of acquaintances (about 1 in 100) = about level 7
Higher-level NPCs tend to be rare enough that they get named and explicitly described in whatever the source material is. At level 10, you count as "legendary" for the purposes of determining if, for example, knowing about folk is just common knowledge locally or if spells like Legend Lore work on a person.

And we also have things like the Leadership feat and rules for hireling/ follower/ cohort advancement, which makes it clear that NPCs do gain levels from life experience. They usually level in NPC classes, mind (Commoner, Warrior. Adept, Aristocrat), but level up they do.
Well, the 3.0 DMG I have seemed to indicate something along the lines of a standard guardsman never surpassing level 2 or 3 in their lifetime (as a warrior, not a fighter). To me that would mean that a grizzled sergeant in the guard as a level 2 warior would be common, and that a level 1 fighter isn't all that far off from that.

I always thought level 2-3 was pretty much as high as any "non-exceptional" soldier or guard would EVER reach.
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Khazar Stoneblood
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by Khazar Stoneblood »

Xanthea wrote:
Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Higher levels don't represent regular life experience. They represent "heroic" (or "anti-heroic") accomplishment and achievement. And that should happen in game I think, not "off camera" as backstory.
Yeah I don't think that's completely accurate. While there is certainly a level at which people are "legendary adventuring heroes" and a backstory explaining that would be a bit of a stretch... that level isn't level 2. Veteran or elite troops aren't going to be puttering around at level 1 for their entire lives.

It's not a huge issue, obviously, and the server can survive just fine without offering support to some backstories, but neither do I think it would be a huge loss if there was a way for a rarely played character to get a few levels before being played either. To me it opens up more potential for unique RP, it doesn't close it off.
I suppose, but it's kind of tough for me to swallow the idea of starting as "elite". Yeah, you can't start as a member of the Purple Dragons (Cormyr's 'elite' units). You also can't start as an archmage, a gulid master of a large thieves guild or a high priest of Lathander. We limit you to 1st level POWER as a starting point and that does limit some of your backstory possibilites... but in a good way. It makes the important heroic bits of your character's life happen in the game.

I still maintain that doesn't limit you to "green" concepts. There are many worldly and experienced PC concepts that started out that way. They just didn't start out POWERFUL.

There's a difference I think.
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Re: xp for regular dm'ing

Post by FoamBats4All »

Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Well, the 3.0 DMG I have seemed to indicate something along the lines of a standard guardsman never surpassing level 2 or 3 in their lifetime (as a warrior, not a fighter). To me that would mean that a grizzled sergeant in the guard as a level 2 warior would be common, and that a level 1 fighter isn't all that far off from that.
Could you provide a page number for that? Zelknolf's post above is actually taken from the DMG, and directly contradicts your unsourced, and rather absurdly out of the spirit of D&D claim.

For example, D&D 3.5 DMG on page 138 has a variety of tables for generating cities, and the amount of NPCs of various levels. Here is a direct quote:
D&D Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5e, page 138 wrote:For example, if the highest-level fighter is 5th level, then the community also has two 3rd-level fighters and four 1st-level fighters.
...
Using these guidelines and the tables in the previous section, the breakdown by class and level for the population of a typical hamlet of two hundred people looks like this:
One 1st-level aristocrat (mayor)
• One 3rd-level warrior (constable)
• Nine 1st-level warriors (two guards, seven militia members)
• One 3rd-level expert smith (militia member)
• Seven 1st-level expert crafters and professionals of various sorts
• One 1st-level adept
• One 3rd-level commoner barkeep (militia member)
• One hundred sixty-six 1st-level commoners (one is a militia member)
• One 3rd-level fighter
• Two 1st-level fighters
• One 1st-level wizard
• One 3rd-level cleric
• Two 1st-level clerics
• One 1st-level druid
• One 3rd-level rogue
• Two 1st-level rogues
• One 1st-level bard
• One 1st-level monk
2nd and 3rd level? That's freaking barkeeper level in a tiny hamlet, not a grizzled sergeant in an actual city. Bigger cities have more higher levels, generally following the ratios presented by Zelknolf (matching the Leadership feat table).

PCs should be the one in one hundred, the exceptionally talented individuals, not 1/3 the level of the local barkeep.

And yet, here on ALFA we have the policy and seemingly majority opinion that if you're not playing a level 1 scrub who isn't out fighting monsters (but not too much, or you're a dirty farmer, and you better not level or it's bad RP), you're doing something wrong.
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