Uncanny Dodge Fix
Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
If we're going to get into variations of "flat +AC for all," then we're also getting into the territory of "equal workload to just write the workaround that has a far more faithful reproduction of the ability's effects."
Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
And here we go another round ...
Perhaps you could save us from keeping on dancing in circles around the subject, Zelk, and say you can and will script a pretty good workround, i.e. #3? There's dozens things we could do, but apparently at the end of the day, a property to have UD do at least about what UD should do, is the only one that makes enough sense.
Perhaps you could save us from keeping on dancing in circles around the subject, Zelk, and say you can and will script a pretty good workround, i.e. #3? There's dozens things we could do, but apparently at the end of the day, a property to have UD do at least about what UD should do, is the only one that makes enough sense.
Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
Just giving everyone improved instead would also be a decent option. Those who get uncanny twice and would have improved anyway if the stupid thing wasn't busted could get a bonus feat of the players choosing.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
I'm sure clerics would appreciate not being able to cast shields before a fight.Veilan wrote:If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
Veilan wrote:If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.
Cheers,
Then improve rogues, don't nerf barbs. Cleric is without a doubt the most uber class in ALFA, they have AC, AB, HP, free healing, offensive and defensive spells, buffs etc etc. Should we nerf them too? No. Lets just fix the barb if we can.
Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
This.oldgrayrogue wrote:Veilan wrote:If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.
Cheers,
Then improve rogues, don't nerf barbs. Cleric is without a doubt the most uber class in ALFA, they have AC, AB, HP, free healing, offensive and defensive spells, buffs etc etc. Should we nerf them too? No. Lets just fix the barb if we can.
Barbarians and fighters are already screwed just by game balance, adding to it would just be rubbing salt in the wound.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
oldgrayrogue wrote:Then improve rogues, don't nerf barbs.
I am glad you both seem to agree to my suggestion then, which was to buff rogues, but not barbs, with the "armour skin" feat.Adanu wrote:This.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
seeing as Zelknolf offered to make a close to pnp equivilant... all this seems rather pointless, just give her the go ahead already? if Rogues get a fix for UD, then Barbarians should also. There should be no ifs or buts... simple fact is, the class gets the ability, it should get the same fix Rogue does.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
Zelk's workaround however is not near as easily implemented, is unintuitive for most "normal" players, and uses effects that are not at all PnPy to simulate a close approximation of the effect, as I understood it (I could be mistaken, naturally). I am just not sure it stands a reasonable chance of implementation, though obviously everyone, including me, would have to agree: simply getting uncanny dodge to work as intended, for everyone, would be best.
But let's not continue to make the perfect the enemy of the good - let's not restart this discussion in the next merry-go-round in continuing circles of the same old points discussed ad infinitum. I do realise this is not a fix / buff to clerics or other primary casters, but that should heighten its priority given ALFA's current state of affairs.
Buff the most severely hit guys by this some, it being understood it gets taken back when we get a proper fix... instead of continuing this current nerf to everyone due to envy and chasing of dream solutions. And as you remember, it wasn't even me who brought up barbarians, I just offered a solution in case it really bugs people that much that some armoured, DR'ed hit point bag gains another point of AC.
Actually, I find the misrepresentation and hostility that stands in the way of factual analysis here quite tiresome, I guess there's a reason the Standards boards exist .
Anyway, different solution could be to make a barb class level requirement, but I'm actually not too worried since you have to take 2 levels of barbarians to get the feat already anyway, and can't just single-dip into it.
Cheers,
But let's not continue to make the perfect the enemy of the good - let's not restart this discussion in the next merry-go-round in continuing circles of the same old points discussed ad infinitum. I do realise this is not a fix / buff to clerics or other primary casters, but that should heighten its priority given ALFA's current state of affairs.
Buff the most severely hit guys by this some, it being understood it gets taken back when we get a proper fix... instead of continuing this current nerf to everyone due to envy and chasing of dream solutions. And as you remember, it wasn't even me who brought up barbarians, I just offered a solution in case it really bugs people that much that some armoured, DR'ed hit point bag gains another point of AC.
Actually, I find the misrepresentation and hostility that stands in the way of factual analysis here quite tiresome, I guess there's a reason the Standards boards exist .
Anyway, different solution could be to make a barb class level requirement, but I'm actually not too worried since you have to take 2 levels of barbarians to get the feat already anyway, and can't just single-dip into it.
Cheers,
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
Frankly I like the sound of Z's proposal from the initial post. It ties to flat footedness, and "something wonderful happening" quite briefly. You could even call it uncanny.
The known shortcoming seems to mainly be that "sometimes this wonderful thing will slightly outlast flat-footedness", but not by long, and if there's more than one flat footed event in a somewhat long encounter (a "second wave"), it might be slow to kick in, if I read the outlook right.
Flat footedness is the very temporary state, the PnP idea is "hey, you don't lose your Dex bonus at that point, you are from a class who probably treasures this Dex bonus after all." Apparently we cannot preserve that Dex bonus, but a very temporary "lucky break" during that period of some small amount of concealment, i.e., "wow am I ever uncannily lucky, that first blow sailed right by me" is an interesting alternative. A lot more interesting than "+1 armor all the time."
I am not clear by any stretch where those 4-5 lines of code from the OP would go (other than "someplace in the haks"), whether they perform as advertised is a topic more for testing.
I suspect we do know what +1 epic armor skin would look like without testing. We also know what broken uncanny dodge looks like without testing (i.e., "nothing happens").
DMA could "authorize a test", with fallback of +1 armor skin if the results are unsatisfactory, incurably so, etc.
The known shortcoming seems to mainly be that "sometimes this wonderful thing will slightly outlast flat-footedness", but not by long, and if there's more than one flat footed event in a somewhat long encounter (a "second wave"), it might be slow to kick in, if I read the outlook right.
Flat footedness is the very temporary state, the PnP idea is "hey, you don't lose your Dex bonus at that point, you are from a class who probably treasures this Dex bonus after all." Apparently we cannot preserve that Dex bonus, but a very temporary "lucky break" during that period of some small amount of concealment, i.e., "wow am I ever uncannily lucky, that first blow sailed right by me" is an interesting alternative. A lot more interesting than "+1 armor all the time."
I am not clear by any stretch where those 4-5 lines of code from the OP would go (other than "someplace in the haks"), whether they perform as advertised is a topic more for testing.
I suspect we do know what +1 epic armor skin would look like without testing. We also know what broken uncanny dodge looks like without testing (i.e., "nothing happens").
DMA could "authorize a test", with fallback of +1 armor skin if the results are unsatisfactory, incurably so, etc.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
So...
we all agree some compensation / fix should be given, we just don't agree on the path to be taken.
Polling time?
we all agree some compensation / fix should be given, we just don't agree on the path to be taken.
Polling time?
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
Either an executive decision, or a vote. But who will we be asking?
Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
here is the list of classes that get uncanny dodge as a bonus feat
Rouge 4
Barb 2
Cleric with air domain 1
Assassin 2
Dwarven defender 2
Shadowdancer 2
shadow thief 2
scared fist 2
Rouge 4
Barb 2
Cleric with air domain 1
Assassin 2
Dwarven defender 2
Shadowdancer 2
shadow thief 2
scared fist 2
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix
Just give Zelk the green light already