Paladin Class Feature to Replace Paladin Mounts

[Shy Girl]

This sounds like a really cool idea. I like how the weapon sort of evolves with you. So it's got personality of it's own in a way.

[Brokenbone]

I don't much like Charging Smite myself... crazy bulldozer type power to it, if you've got the levels for it (i.e., when you first get it, it'd be +10 damage to a single attack... and goes up from there).

Don't much like the Divine Spirits stuff either. Dungeonscapes has some cool ideas, this isn't one of them.

Again, as linked, someone out there has apparently started the groundwork on those for their own use, in case there ended up being some great hunger to see one of those implemented, see about sharing resources / ideas.

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I'm personally warm to the idea of basically, a "free" decent weapon that roleplay is probably going to dictate making your mainstay. I.e., use that funny spear you found in an orc lair with all the creepy runes and bloodstains, or the sword that Torm himself entrusted you with? By 5th level, many PCs will have either lucked into, or purchased, a 2300ish gp +1 weapon anyhow.

Is there maybe more to that Dragon quote though, describing the good alignment / holy / whatever type of progression from 5-10-15-20?

It might bear thinking about how that combines with the sort of "bonus" crafting feat, which granted, only ties to one particular weapon being altered. That is, if a PC somehow juiced up their weapon between 5th and 10th so that it was effectively +2, what happens at 10th? It becomes +2 holy, plus whatever you'd tacked onto the existing +1 good? Would you get a choice of "having whichever you prefer"? (i.e., what you made, vs. what you're offered at the level?) Magic weapon expenses, whether in PnP or in ALFA, kind of work on exponential type formulae, where after awhile, even small seeming improvements can cause value to go through the roof. Quickly improve at 9th to something better than +2 equivalent so it becomes +4 overnight hitting 10th, type of scenarios, are what I'm kind of pondering here.

Again though, I am just thinking about how that'd play out in PnP, forgetting the ALFA stuff for the moment. Brainstorming etc.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

The full description is only in the dragon magazine article, and I can't find the article proper online (and I lack a scanner at home to scan the article itself in).

As far as the increasing goes, I've always just taken it the way Unearthed Arcana presented Weapon Familiar (a feat that gives an item +1 bonuses every few levels).

You can't make the weapon go over +10 (say for instance you were sneaky and self-upgraded the weapon to a +5 Holy Shadowstriking (+10 equiv), then at level 20 got lawful , making it a +12 equiv weapon.). Even though the level dependent upgrades are 'free', they still add to the overall enhancement of the weapon, so upgrading is more and more expensive as you go, and cannot go beyond +10 total.

As far as 'replacing' the good aligned weapon part, making a weapon good aligned isn't an enchancement in itself, its just a unique part. Hell, for something like 500 gp you can buy heaven forged metal (Aasimar and Tiefling Sourcebook), a crystal metal in The Book of Exalted Deeds, or Flametouched Iron (Eberron Campaign Setting) to make a weapon count as good aligned. Holy just supercedes it.

As far as the pure enhancement bonus (the +1), if you happened to upgrade the sword to +2 yourself, then at level 10 it would become +3.

[Brokenbone]

It sounded kind of like Weapon Familiar... hmm. Maybe that's why this celestial weapon improvement business sounded like something I had heard before.

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Anyhow as to "good aligned" weapons, ALFA at least supports Frystalline as a special material... +3000gp per weapon. Mentioned only from the perspective of saying "so what is this free weapon worth, if a non paladin wanted to simulate it?"

As to enhancement caps, ALFA's goes to +6 last I checked (just mentioned since the +10 / +12 thing came up).

As to a paladin sort of sitting around and crafting (though as long as its tied to his particular summoned weapon, without needing the feat), DM'd or DMless crafting seems pretty up in the air in ALFA, though NWN1 saw some useful enough DM-aided crafting policies, specific to servers whose teams were into it. I would imagine that this element of the suggested paladin ability would not see implementation until it'd been figured out for "big time" caster/crafter types who were willing to spend the feats. (I.e., if PC wizards couldn't make wands, why would PC paladins be permitted to juice up their swords?)

Heh, all of this stuff is definitely a hell of a lot more useful than a pokemon horsey who'll never catch the flu.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

Hah! In third edition up, paladin mounts don't even get immunity to disease. The horsey can turn in a mummy as far as the rules go and all a paladin could do is cry over it (and cast remove disease if they're level 6+).

I was under the impression that currently crafting as a "Ask a DM, and if you've taken the proper feats and such it could be done", but I could be wrong on that. Either way, I'm glad to see people like this idea.

[psycho_leo]

I was under the impression that currently crafting as a "Ask a DM, and if you've taken the proper feats and such it could be done", but I could be wrong on that. Either way, I'm glad to see people like this idea.

For NWN, at least sembia, NC and SD have crafting enabled like this. I'm not sue what the policy will be for NWN2.

[JaydeMoon]

I think allowing this, and also allowing the 'feat' for Paladins to upgrade the weapon, but capping the upgrade to single item cap in terms of how powerful a Paladin could enchant it might work?

While being able to power up their own weapon seems really nice, as a balancer (I may be wrong here), only the feat is granted. I imagine the paladin could only upgrade the sword using paladin spells? Not sure what sort of abilities you can add to it using just Paladin spells...

I guess if you were a paladin wiz/sorc multiclass...

[Munmun]

One of the special properties of this item is that the paladin does not need the enchanting feats or the actual spells to do the enchanting. The actual enchanting is done at the celestial forge where the paladin calls it from. However, they still spend the GP and the XP.

You still only get to go up to the +6 total that I believe ALFA uses and if you reach +6 any further improvements on the weapon are lost.

[Mayhem]

Somebody said this was balanced if we keep it to what other Lx characters could have at a similar level.

In which case, doesn't it become slightly pointless? A special ability that lets you get for free the same as every other character of your level has to pay for? Sounds like a bonus, until you remember our Wealth Limits.

You run up against the same issue we have with crafting other magic items - the paladin who has this weapon will have to excuse himself from additional treasure, not giving him an advantage at all.

UNLESS the celestial weapon is going to be excluded from wealth limits, of course. In which case it would definately be worth having - especially at higher levels when the value of the weapon could presumably be in the 10,000's...

[AcadiusLost]

I dunno, I know my lawful good PC in NWN1 gave away plenty (40%?) of DM awarded items to others in need, and she wasn't even a paladin. I think even if it counted towards the wealth standards, having a significant, useful item that's 100% IC to keep and use is pretty priceless for a character who is locked into the "generous, kindhearted, selfless" schtick. It's not too good for working the loot angle. When the DM coverage is split many ways and plots tend to come and go without resolution, there is definitely something to be said for an automatic/reliable reward item to look forward to.

[hollyfant]

/me takes out his Holy Monkey Wrench of Nebelun the Meddler and starts throwing.

What about deities who have Unarmed Strike as their favoured "weapon"?

[Brokenbone]

+1 enhanced, good aligned gauntlets? Best spend a feat relating to unarmed strikes unless you want death by AoO. Would apply I suppose to Paladins of Ilmater.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

That's where the DM discretion part comes in. Generally it would default to a longsword or something close for that kind of case, as the paladin needs to be proficient with the weapon one would imagine.

[Brokenbone]

I think the fairest would be "whatever that deity favors," as opposed to "whatever you prefer." The thing is, you'll know what you're getting from the moment you roll up a PC, so it's not like getting a random weapon surprise or anything like that (Torm gave me a.... kukri??).

This may mean having to forget about a shield if using your Tormite greatsword. This may mean investing in Improved Unarmed Strike if you wish to minimize AoOs on an Ilmater paladin. I'm sure there's some other wacky weapons somewhere in the mix (though dwarves at least are 99% axes and hammers), I suppose only in the limited cases where NWN2 weapon models didn't exist, a surrogate might be picked. Like a Nobanionite would need a heavy pick, I don't know if we have anything resembling that yet.

Sometimes good tactics would call for putting a particular weapon away in any case, like using even a magicked Tyrran longsword against skeletons may be stupid. Or charging a bunch of orcish archers with your greatsword, when maybe a shield would've been a good call at least until you close the gap. Anyhow just some thoughts.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

That's true, but at the same time a paladin shouldn't be punished for his deity having a strange exotic weapon they'd never use. The point of the class feature is to be useful. And most Ilmaterian paladin orders (Golden Chalice, and a few others) pick up the use of the longsword, since it is the atypical paladin weapon.

Though I see the point that it should be rare circumstance that changes a weapon away from a deity's favored. Ilmater is the only example that comes to my mind immediatly. Helm would be an issue in NWN2, but ALFA made bastard sword a two handed martial (as its supposed to be), which solves that. Sune also has a whip, though NWN2 makes it a flail for ease sake.

So really only Ilmaterians, and since Ilmater himself works for Tyr, and they're all part of the Triad, a longsword isn't a huge stretch.

And for Tormites who still want to use a shield: Monkey Grip. ;D