Tech Staff Status Question: Feats?

[Veilan]

Hey guys,

how's the implementation going of ALFA's feat changes?

Currently, the list seems to be:

• Able Learner Learn non-class skill as if it were class skill.
  Retained, edit to have skill point cap, Level One only
• Circle Kick Successful unarmed hit allows one free attack.
  Removed
• Curse Song Reduces enemy combat abilities.
  Removed
• Dash Movement speed increased by 5%
  Removed
• Mind Over Body^ Int and metamagic feats increase hit points (instead of Con).
  Retained, edit to include +1 AC for arcane casters, Level One only
• Resistance to Energy DR5 vs one energy type
  Removed
• Toughness +1 hp/level
  Retained, Level One only
• Track Mini-map shows nearby enemies.
  Removed, pending patching or switch availability.

^ Background feat - any PC can have only one of these, to be chosen at level 1.

Thanks for all the great work so far, just jumbling around the last open questions to prepare for our big day .

[AcadiusLost]

This is the first I've heard of these, I think- so the progress is 0%.

We can edit 2das to remove some feats from the list as PCs level, but we can't keep anything from showing up at 1st level unless they change things to allow haks to load before character creation (several months down the line at the earliest).

I've no idea how Able Learner can be modified to reflect non-class skill rank maximums. Has it been confirmed that it does not do this in the current patch? If so, it's possible there is something than can be resolved in the levelup GUI, though that's a pretty heavy request technically speaking. Does selecting Able Learner change max ranks for nonclass skills at character creation to 4 as well?

Dash and Curse Song are level one options, so there is no way to keep them off the list at character creation. While you could stub them out to make them do nothing, that shortchanges the player by robbing them of a feat.

Tracking isn't the best system- but it sounds like the tracking system that you have a problem with, not the feat (which just enhances the tracking abilities). I know of no way to disable tracking, and I think it would be sufficient to post a block of guidelines on how best to treat the information gleaned by it in an IC fashion.

Even the changes in effect (which will be, again, misleading for anyone taking them at level one) like Mind Over Body, I'm certainly not aware of how to implement them for passive feats.

[psycho_leo]

Does selecting Able Learner change max ranks for nonclass skills at character creation to 4 as well?

I'm not sure what you're aslking about. If that isn't it, please disregard.

You have to pick skills before selecting feats. I'm not sure you can go back to it. Have we changed that? After character creation it doesn't expand the max rank cap for cross class skills. If you create a fighter with able learner you can only pick 2 ranks of Hide on lvl 2 (unless you lvl as rogue/ranger/whatnot) but the cost is reduced to onepoint per skill as expected.

[Wynna]

Can you link to discussion of this, Veilan? If we need to look at posting rules about what feats PCs can and can't take before Live, we'll need to do that fast.

[psycho_leo]

On a side note... You mentioned stubbing out disallowed feats. Is it possible to alter the description of such feats (even if only shows after creation) to reflect this? Maybe put something along the lines of "This feat is not supported in ALFA, please contact a DM/ rebuild/ whatever".

[Veilan]

This is the first I've heard of these, I think- so the progress is 0%.

That's what I feared . Sorry for not having thought of it sooner, I somehow assumed it had been communicated and things would fall into place, as I thought Rusty was behind communicating NWN 2 changes. My fault, really, and a big mea culpa - I got broiled up in all the stuff I had to do so much that I forgot to check whether things were progressing outside the forest, too.

We can edit 2das to remove some feats from the list as PCs level, but we can't keep anything from showing up at 1st level unless they change things to allow haks to load before character creation (several months down the line at the earliest).

That is a severe limitation. We can try to make players aware of the "empty" feats and hope they won't pick them, but I'm sure accidents still will happen.

I've no idea how Able Learner can be modified to reflect non-class skill rank maximums. Has it been confirmed that it does not do this in the current patch?

Well, basically, the feat seems to pretend that once you've taken it, every skill you got at a class skill somewhere always is a class skill, no matter what you level. I think that was the issue ATD and Rusty had with it, though it doesn't strike me as too bad, since you can still just save up 5 skill points from level to level anyway.

If so, it's possible there is something than can be resolved in the levelup GUI, though that's a pretty heavy request technically speaking.

If it is too difficult, we will have to think of something, whether either scrapping it or accepting it, as a level 1 or background feat only. Personally, I think it would be fine as a level 1 only feat then, so barring any major smackdown from any Admin let's work off that assumption.

Does selecting Able Learner change max ranks for nonclass skills at character creation to 4 as well?

No - you distribute skill points before you pick your feats, therefore, taking it at level 1 only effect your skills come level 2.

Dash and Curse Song are level one options, so there is no way to keep them off the list at character creation. While you could stub them out to make them do nothing, that shortchanges the player by robbing them of a feat.

May have to hope everyone will be aware they're not an option, can we as PL suggested edit their description or name at all? "This feat does nothing in ALFA." might just suffice to keep us from having to rebuild characters, but we can't do that without overrides, can we?

Tracking isn't the best system- but it sounds like the tracking system that you have a problem with, not the feat (which just enhances the tracking abilities). I know of no way to disable tracking, and I think it would be sufficient to post a block of guidelines on how best to treat the information gleaned by it in an IC fashion.

I'm personally not too fussed either way with the feat, I also like having it, but I can see how the information with increasing range as a radar sense can become problematic, and follow the "DMs should be able to disable it" argumentation.

Even the changes in effect (which will be, again, misleading for anyone taking them at level one) like Mind Over Body, I'm certainly not aware of how to implement them for passive feats.

Maybe steal from another feat that has such an effect, like dodge or luck of heroes? Sorry, just tossing off random ideas - I've not yet tried to mod NWN 2. Don't let it bother you too much though, in the worst case, we can give out +1 dodge boots to affected PCs to simulate the effect (dodge is not allowed on NWN 2 boots as a regular property anymore), maybe with a starting merchant conversation check that gives them out if you have the feat.

Sorry for the late notice on all of this, and thanks for the feedback.

[Veilan]

Can you link to discussion of this, Veilan? If we need to look at posting rules about what feats PCs can and can't take before Live, we'll need to do that fast.

Hey Wynna,

most comprehensive feat discussion is here:

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=34734

There are also some scattered threads about skills, classes and the like on the NWN 2 boards. Once I can get a confirmation from Rusty, I'll post a definete list of the skill changes that were discussed, hurk.

I've already informed the PA about it when I started to realise that apparently we dropped the pall somewhere along the ride. In fact, I've asked PA and TA each to divert some special attention to it too, so we can hopefully wrap it up still .

[ç i p h é r]

What AL said. 0% progress. I vaguely recall discussions about feats but we haven't modified anything. IIRC, we shelved a lot of this work months back when the game/toolset wasn't quite up to par. And it still isn't.

In any case, we can't do anything about this by live, apart from something very very very simple.

[AcadiusLost]

We can't change the names, descriptions, availabilty- anything, really, at time of character creation. So any deviations from NWN2/MotB standard are going to fail to appear until leveling up to 2nd level. Our haks and tlk file simply don't exist until after character creation, as far as the game is concerned.

Between this and the timeframe we're working on, I'd suggest a rethink of the requirements. Anything that's available from character creation that's not gamebreaking should be left in, anything at character creation that is gamebreaking can be tested for by the start area door scripts and disallow entry, just like the OAS2 door does for diallowed race PCs. It's ugly, but better to have a diplomatically worded script let the player know to reroll, then have them play for a few days and then have a DM have to tell them "OMG your PC is illegal", or worse, accuse them of expoiting.

Feats that can only be taken at higher levels can be deleted/altered via tlk entries and 2da changes.

[Veilan]

Between this and the timeframe we're working on, I'd suggest a rethink of the requirements. Anything that's available from character creation that's not gamebreaking should be left in, anything at character creation that is gamebreaking can be tested for by the start area door scripts and disallow entry, just like the OAS2 door does for diallowed race PCs. It's ugly, but better to have a diplomatically worded script let the player know to reroll, then have them play for a few days and then have a DM have to tell them "OMG your PC is illegal", or worse, accuse them of expoiting.

I like it, it's certainly a better way to handle that. Sadly ATD isn't around, but I'll try to consult with Rusty and the other S&T members about what is considered how important - for instance, personally I see no issue with toughness being taken later on, the feat wasn't game breaking in NWN 1 and it's less valuable now with maximum hit points. I'm not sure how strong the reservations go about other things. Same with circle kick really - I've actually found the feat to be more hurting than helpful, but that likely only means scrapping it is probably doing not so effectivity-savvy people a favour.

Again, thank you kindly for the work and input on feasibility of solutions.

[Rusty]

If we can keep the cut ones cut, by proscription (APM) plus any tech solution, that seems to work.

Also, there's a list of level-one only feats that need a quick look over (Stds, Alara can provide details if needed), and if we can add Toughness and Able Learner that's swanky to level-one only.

[indio]

I'll stick the banned feat list in the module description, once it's finalised.

[Veilan]

Also, there's a list of level-one only feats that need a quick look over (Stds, Alara can provide details if needed),

I checked those, they are indeed all level 1. Background feats in fact, so we don't need to address them.

So, judging from Rusty's comments, here's what I think will be a good list of what needs to be done:

• Able Learner
  Make level one only - should be an easy fix, judging from AL's comments, as we can cut it from our hak/tlk and then it won't appear after level 1 anymore (but should still have its effect, yes?).
• Circle Kick
  Cut - since it's not available at level 1, no issues.
• Dash
  Cut - through AL's suggested method of character-check upon leaving the start area, and with documentation advising players. Thanks indio!
• Mind over Body
  Give out boots +1 dodge AC via character-check upon leaving the start area (or can we put that on any other item now?).

Track we can't fix as of yet, and using AL's method of shutting it out is not viable - rangers get it from the start. We can just hope DMs are aware of the "radar" and that players will heed if a DM asks them to not use tracking mode, and instead rely on them asking for rolls. Toughness still isn't worth any hassle, imho, but cutting it shouldn't be a big problem to do tech-wise - I'm just not convinced why we should, this feat is hardly useful on level 1, decreased in overall usefulness, and has not been a problem in NWN 1 (though I'm curious to see how often it has been taken - a lot I guess, which then would still be more of a nod to our permadeath environment than to it being overpowered). Anyway, Admin's last call on that one.

I think if we could get the fixes in that list in, we're basically in the clear. Again, thanks everyone for the help and input, especially in such a swift fashion.

Cheers,

[AcadiusLost]

• Able Learner
  Make level one only - should be an easy fix, judging from AL's comments, as we can cut it from our hak/tlk and then it won't appear after level 1 anymore (but should still have its effect, yes?).
• Circle Kick
  Cut - since it's not available at level 1, no issues.
• Dash
  Cut - through AL's suggested method of character-check upon leaving the start area, and with documentation advising players. Thanks indio!
• Mind over Body
  Give out boots +1 dodge AC via character-check upon leaving the start area (or can we put that on any other item now?).

I think setting MaxLevel=1 for Able Learner (and/or toughness) should be better than deleting them, since our feats.2da will be in place for all levels after 1st.

Circle Kick going to REMOVED = TRUE should sort it, if it's not a level-one available feat.

Dash- can add the warning check. What was the problem with this again? ATD's commentary that monks and barbs get more movement increase automatically seems pretty poignant here. Is it really worth forcing players to reroll over?

Mind Over Body- the autoaward of +1 dodge boots is problematic on a number of levels- we'd need a custom blueprint present on all ALFA servers for them, they'd have to be undroppable, unsellable/tradeable, would restrict the future options of the PC, change their wealth stats, etc- I've also never tried deprecating a passive feat before- it doesn't appear feat.2da references a particular script to apply the effects, meaning they may be hardcoded into nwscript.nss - or they may just be linked through something else I'm not aware of. Again, how critical is it to block this? We're talking hours of work and testing for what, keeping the rare caster who doesn't take Spellcasting prodigy from having a few more hitpoints?

[Veilan]

I think setting MaxLevel=1 for Able Learner (and/or toughness) should be better than deleting them, since our feats.2da will be in place for all levels after 1st.

Great, that's even better.

Circle Kick going to REMOVED = TRUE should sort it, if it's not a level-one available feat.

It's not, it requires a certain +AB, so this is perfect.

Dash- can add the warning check. What was the problem with this again? ATD's commentary that monks and barbs get more movement increase automatically seems pretty poignant here. Is it really worth forcing players to reroll over?

The only application to reasonably take it is CvC and / or trying to exploit NPC speeds, while monk / barb levels certainly don't only have these implications. I started wondering first what the issue with the feat is myself, but having thought about it while cycling today, it's rather underpowered in any but those situations where you take it specifically to exploit something. Therefore, the only potential this feat has is to add a headache. I know it's problematic to explement (har), but I've come to share Rusty's reasoning about it, and your solution seems to work well enough for dealing with it.

Mind Over Body- the autoaward of +1 dodge boots is problematic on a number of levels- we'd need a custom blueprint present on all ALFA servers for them, they'd have to be undroppable, unsellable/tradeable, would restrict the future options of the PC, change their wealth stats, etc-

Yeah, I understand it's a big hassle . I guess we could just scrap fixing it if it's too much work, but since this is the only positive change - that is, upgrading an underpowered feat - we have to offer with those, I'm a bit reluctant to let it drop.

Sidenote, what do you mean by "restrict the future options of the PC"? I don't understand that part.

I've also never tried deprecating a passive feat before- it doesn't appear feat.2da references a particular script to apply the effects, meaning they may be hardcoded into nwscript.nss - or they may just be linked through something else I'm not aware of. Again, how critical is it to block this? We're talking hours of work and testing for what, keeping the rare caster who doesn't take Spellcasting prodigy from having a few more hitpoints?

Huh? I think we had a little misunderstanding here, sorry if I was confusing. The feat is not getting deprecated, it is upgraded - on top of the hit point boost that it already gives by vanilla NWN 2, the feat should give +1 armour class. That is the way it is in PnP, and only with those couple of hit points, handy as they may be to a wizard on level 1, it is certainly less powerful than other background feats. With the bonus hit points and +1 AC, it may just be a viable choice for a caster: The bonus hit points help you the most on the first levels, and the +1 AC will be useful all throughout your career.

Thanks,