Server Bias

[Brokenbone]

I've played one PC for just short of a year, rolled on BG, never traveled yet.

Found some good players when starting. Had a bit of a drought. Found more good players. Joined a group. Group attracts DM. Collectively means scheduling a regular night. Regular / predictable schedule means campaigns, not just one offs, possible.

Why ever leave?

It did start with good PEOPLE though, good chemistry is the secret sauce. Not statics, not aesthetics, not ability to fool with tailors, etc.

I am sure good people can pop up anyplace. But they have to be there to meet in the first place, so while "hey, it's hard to tell why density is as it is at any given moment", people will attract people, then maybe connections get made.

[oldgrayrogue]

In my opinion the only thing that has led to a drop in player population on TSM is the current limited RL availability of several of its DMs including myself. Not long ago, JLM was running pretty much daily events. Viigas was also regularly active and JLM and I were running fairly regular events to move our current campaign forward. Then RL hit causing J and V to take a break and me to try to get in as much as possible but fall woefully short a lot of the time. This is just reality in a volunteer hobby community. There are peaks and valleys of DM coverage.

As far as server choice, I now play on BG because I DM on TSM and because I have found a group of players on BG that I enjoy playing with who are in my same time zone. I love what Paazin and his team have done with BG in terms of static content, especially the tailor and other efforts at customization which I think Admin should immediately implement ALFA wide, but that is not the reason I play on BG. TSM IMO has comparable static content and gorgeous areas, and having started characters on both servers I can say without hesitation that there is more opportunity to progress quickly with much less risk on TSM than on BG. That is another reason I choose to play on BG -- I enjoy the risk of actual PC death in my adventures, and BG is a very risky place to play. And the rewards are commensurate with the risk. If there is one thing I would change about TSM it is the overland map. When TSM was the only server, as a player you got used to the break in immersion it caused. Now with other servers to choose from the OLM is a negative on TSM in my opinion.

I have tried in the current TSM campaign to bring that same "edge of your seat" style of play to TSM with the current campaign. Frankly, as a player I would love to play in a large war plot campaign and I think as DMs we do the style of play we like and hope others join in because they like that too. So yeah, I think recent preferences -- I would not call it bias -- are a combination of all of the above. I take responsibility for a big portion of the drop off on TSM but unfortunately RL has to come first for me.

As for MS, I tried it out for about a week and liked the feel of the server and the island setting. Yes, it took getting used to but that was part of the allure for me. Unfortunately I don't think there were any DMs in my time zone so I did not stick around for that reason. Some low level statics, other than fed ex type statics that players could "adventure RP" around when no DMs are on, would help attract more players to MS IMO.

[ElCadaver]

So what I'm getting from the conversation so far is:

TSM could do with a revamp of it's areas and static content, and all the new tech which allows players more options for customisation? I'm talking TSM because I'm very familiar with it, and have not much knowledge of what is available on MS.

What about possibly making Silvrymoon the main start point? Work on making it heavy(er) in static content for new people to familiarize, and really tie players into the main city? Obviously, there are race specific options too.

Changing the world map for long thin roadways like BG? A tradeoff between looks and module size probably.. Personally, while technically well implemented, the world map is appalling, a major turn off (and that's not just because my version got knocked back. Willing to have another try 'game of thrones-esque if required). I'd prefer a map of the area with pick and click like in the vanilla game, with a x% chance of a random encounter what what is there now. The wagon system for TSM is also a must, IMO.

I have for my part, been chipping away at the area revamp issue. I have no idea who made the original areas, and I applaud their effort, but I think a lot more information on good building technique has become available since some of the areas were made, and it shows in the final product.Being sensitive to the original builders, and including tribute to their original designs in the revamp is, I hope, a nice way to modernise the look of the server. I really have a heart for TSM, and will continue to work on this while my work is well received. Making quests and scripting on the other hand is not my forte.

Are there any new people around with the skills it takes to make changes, which are currently not involved in any projects? I'm sure there is lots of things the HDM's of both TSM and MS would like to achieve, which would bring as much life to the server as BG has.


I don't think any DM should blame themselves for an lack of activity on a server. it's a hard Job, it's volunteer, and we all have lives to run.

The last two posts have given me an idea though.

Perhaps part of the application process should be tailored to find out what sort of group a player might like to fit into, and that new and like players are brought together based on timezone and preferences. Not anything enforced, just something to help the formation of groups more quickly. That being done, DM's from different servers could actively target groups to hook them into campaigns where they want them, and we could actually influence server density actively.

I don't know if it exists, but there is definitely room for a collaborative DM forum in which plans can be made for ALFA as a whole, regardless of server affiliation.

Look, I'm terrible at making people do anything, but I'm sure there are people persons in ALFA which have the skill sets necessary to move that sort of process forward, should they choose to do so.

[Riotnrrd]

I really don't think TSM needs more statics. There are plenty, they are regularly repeated by some players, and I do not think more would contribute to a positive RP experience for anyone.

[dergon darkhelm]

Transferring my earlier posts from the Discussion Forum in hopes of consolidation:

I think that is does all come down to DMs. However, it is not so simple as to have any DM log in on a server and a player base instantly appears.

The DM:PC ratio is less elastic than that. I see this more like osmosis.

What is need is sustained quality DMing from a consistent DM base over time to slowly draw players into the server. (DMs who only do ad hoc one-offs, while thanked for their efforts, can be effectively removed from the DM:PC osmosis equation.... ) Players are slowly drawn to a server over time by this.

Also DMs and their campaigns can have an overall negative impact on the player base. I've seen that phenomenon play itself out going back to NWN1. A DM with some psychopathology (be it transient or longstanding) can spook a player (or even worse an entire block of players) in surprisingly little time.


Anyway, that was a lot of words just to say ...... "it's all about the DMing".

/me lazily goes back to just being a player

[dergon darkhelm]

Abandoning my original alology to osmosis but not the notion that the problems are still at root DM based---

There is a "unit" in ALFA. I'll name it the DM/PC-group unit (DMPCG). A DMPCG may form in many ways. Sometimes the PCG component forms and recruits a DM, sometimes vice versa. But once this bond is formed the DMPCG becomes the primary population generation and stabilizing element of an ALFA server.

The PCs want to stay because they are involved with regular meaningful DMing. The DM is more likely to stay active because he/she becomes familiar and comfortable with the PC group, making DMing easier and more enjoyable.

Additionally the DMPCG has a "multiplier effect" (that I have not yet quantified but strongly believe exists). Other players find PCs present on the server in which the DMPCG is based and decide to play there. IC relationships between PCs not necessarily in the original DMPCG (and OOC relationships among players) develop, making it more likely the PCs will stay. This in turn is likely to draw even more players and DMs.

With a relatively low growth /static player base as we have in ALFA, this becomes a zero sum game, with the increasing numbers on one server leading to drops on others.


I don't want to entirely discount static matierial, XP differentials, and build, but this is easily overcome by a strong core DMPCG. MS was basically a shell of a server in late 2010/ early 2011, but 3 Tridisus sessions a week with a core group of 7 PCs kept the place lively.

[CloudDancing]

I just occurs to me, if Server A policies and practices = B happy/more players, than maybe server C, D, E, and F better emulate them to the best of their ability.

(Also this thread is making me feel guilty for not Dming three times a week. I am just one person but I built six parts of BG, and 20+ parts of MS. And I can't program a static worth a damn and I wouldn't plague Castano with my attempts either. But I've done my best considering I have a full time schedule and health issues to deal with.

For example Greengrass was a lot of fun and I managed to get at least one or two sessions in a month, and support the players with on-the-fly plot support to their personal plots (plus it is one of four world one day events i've carried off in Alfa.)

The problem is players want constant stimuli, like an MMO offers, and I can't do everything manually. And neither can Castano. Plus plot threads left dangling has been a problem on MS since Trid stomped out after Causk's character died. It is very unsatisfying.

Anyways I've been by the side of my HDM ever day I was up and on my feet to be there, making MS a visually beautiful server if anything.))

[Ithildur]

Some good points brought up by various folks.

I especially find Dergon's notion of a consistent DM + PCs 'group' interesting; it definitely was the case when TSM was active with JLM regularly DMing the TSM Anti-Orc crew as well as Viigas' weekly sessions with the elves (and dwarves before that) and OGR's sessions every other week or so. Sounds like Ronan working with Swords Edge, groups like the Thieves' Guild (Lokan DMs them regularly I was told), Endless Vigil, etc might have similar dynamics on BG. I don't know much about MS's DM/PC situation; from reading some posts it sounds like there currently isn't much of this going on, which would support Dergon's theory and possibly explain why MS is empty too.

The common thread through all three 'groups' above was a sense of continuity, a core group of PCs that consistently were involved from session to session with the same DM, same ongoing story basically. It promotes what ALFA's selling point is, strong sense of story, not just ad hoc one off's or static content (though those are fun and add value as well certainly). You don't need to be in a regular group btw to enjoy this when enough momentum is generated on a server; when a DM regularly and consistently works with a core group of players, as long as that group isn't an ICly exclusive one, it's not difficult for others around them to get involved and caught up in the story (again, barring stuff like timezones and IC conflict or such).

If this is true, then perhaps a priority needs to be made to encourage both DMs and players to look for opportunities to focus on such. The emphasis perhaps should first be on finding a plot/story/theme that lends itself to an ongoing sense of continuity (whether that plot lasts months and is huge in scope or a modest 2, 3 sessions followed by another 3 session mini plot, with perhaps a week's break in between, etc), then looking for a core of compatible PCs/players who can CONSISTENTLY work with the DM.

Again, ad hocs, dm placed encounters, statics are all great when DMs are constrained by RL/schedules/etc, but I really do think when the above is happening on a server it generates momentum. The amount of energy required to run a thoughtfully done 3 part (exposition, development, climax/conclusion) mini plot also doesn't need to be exhausting; one can argue that a thoughtfully crafted ad hoc/one off can easily be stretched out over 2 or 3 sessions without much additional work, allowing players and DM to stretch their RP and take their time, possibly follow up with stuff, go more in depth etc. rather than just a whambamtalktonpcandkillstuffgohomethankyou within the space of a couple of hours.

The problem is players want constant stimuli, like an MMO offers, and I can't do everything manually. And neither can Castano...

I'm of the opinion that is neither possible nor desirable for ALFA. A project run by volunteers, even at the height of numbers we had in ALFA1, cannot match a MMORPG's pace in terms of 'constant stimuli' i.e. new stuff, statics quests, etc. Nor do we want to, because aiming for such WILL shift ALFA's vision/priority/values significantly away from what it is meant to be. I'm not saying statics/new content is bad; I'm saying the desire for 'constant stimuli' is a trap and if players are clamoring for something like a MMOPRG they need to be weaned off it by consistently aiming to offer what ALFA does better than any MMORPG. 'Constant stimuli' ala MMORPG is not the solution, nor is BG's popularity due to such at it's core I'm guessing.

[dergon darkhelm]

Also this thread is making me feel guilty for not Dming three times a week.

Please please please do not feel that my comments meant that I expect 3x/week DMing to be some kind of DMing standard or are meant to minimize the contributions of ALFA DMs and other staff. Absolutely not!

A lot of this ALFA DMing is like catching lightning in a bottle. The DM has to be in a period in their life where they have both the time and the desire to do it. Not everyone can dive in like that all the time.

What I am saying though is the times that I recall as "the good times" in ALFA are the ones when I've seen the same DM on a regular basis with a group as part of an ongoing plot...and when that has happened there has been (not coincidentally imho) a pop in PC player density.

[oldgrayrogue]

DD is right, this has been my experience as well. And Cloud is right that as a DM when you see player expectations going unfulfilled it makes you end up feeling guilty. When you feel guilty doing something you volunteered to do to have fun, it stops being fun. When it stops being fun you stop doing it. When you stop doing ... wait I think I just wandered into a cable TV commercial =P

Reading through this thread, and based on my experience, if a server has two DMs each regularly running a group -- say one regular session a week -- and several other DMs doing ad hoc or lowbie PC stuff, then the server will be popular. As DMs and HDMs we should strive for that goal to the extent possible in an all volunteer community. Like I said, what is possible ebbs and flows and we all just need to ride it out.

[Witchdoctor]

Players are attracted to DM's / DM's are attracted to players = chicken or the egg.

What we need is a soluton to RL. RL is the bane of gaming in a medium/vehicle such as ALFA. Someone discovers that magic bullet and you will fix the issues once and for all. I suggest someone hit a powerball lottery and then split the winnings with all alfans so we can play all the time and not worry about RL issues.

[maxcell]

Lack of DMs isnt the issue, dms sign up then stop because they always find the server empty.

- Statics: BG has loads whereas MS, for example, has few. It’s far easier to level your char on BG without a DM.


This was (or some variant of it) in nearly every post in the other thread. I have said it before, and will say it again: the servers need to feel alive, even when there are no dms to be found. On BG there are loads of things to do, spawnables to collect or hunt for ic reasons or static reasons, wildlife or animals are in every outdoor area (it is a medieval world after all), npcs have Names! They appear as real people.

El cad wondered if it was the way BG looked, and I would say no to that having played on all 3 servers. They are all beautiful. But TSM's early living server ground to a halt and has not progressed, therefore it feels stagnant. MS construction dropped drastically when all work on it shrunk to only Castano (he is only one dude after all) But is is severely lacking statics, wildlife, and named pcs.

I wish I could build, or script, I really do, and I love the servers, all of them and am not bashing any of them. My hat goes off to any who are able to work with that monstrous toolset. It is just that on BG, it is constantly evolving. Not about getting whole new areas, but there is a new wrinkle here, or new freckle there, the lands feel real.

Perhaps my idea of a unified building team that services all the servers with requests coming to their desks from the dm teams of each server (if those dms cannot build it themselves) was not received well, ok. But I will suggest this to TSM and MS, ask directly for help. Not a broad post to get help, we are lazy gamers. PM a builder and ask them to put the BG script for this on your server, or to name all the npcs, add more grasses and plants to areas with the basic grass in it still (I am looking at you TSM ):eek: , ask a scripter to put in random animal spawns, etc... OR if someone offers to improve the server in some way, don't hinder them or mull over it forever, just allow them to do it. Should be no question about that, ever, we just don't have the luxury to be this picky at this stage.

since the other thread was locked and likely some posts would not get read now

[SCI-kick]

I'm new but I'll chime in on this...

I started on TSM about a month ago, and enjoyed it very much. I got Olin to level 3 mostly on statics. But then I got into more DM events which was awesome. I thought the DM presence was good , with 2 DMs (Johnny and Heero) specifically scheduling low level events plus a few other events / DMs.

But, in between events I got lonely occasionally and thus, bored. Once I soloed some gnolls I new I'd better get Olin out of there until he could find a regular group to play with.

I like a good mix of action and RP, like most. I hope to return to TSM as soon as there's some regular adventure pals... Olin's background even points toward Silverymoon Pass and his hometown Sundabar.

Maybe after the " search for Sywyn " scenario I'll give TSM another go, as long as there's folks to RP and adventure with. Until then, I'll play where there's a greater variety of real personalities to interact with.

[Swift]

My main concern is that despite having Amn and Western Heartland nearing live, unless they have the same 'living' feel that BG does, we are very much in danger of becoming, essentially, a 1 server project, which I don't think even the large amount of BG players would want.

On the other hand, you do not want to punish a captain for running a successful ship. On a personal level, and I don't really care, as my PC is played mostly only when the Aussies group gets a push and a DM (as it recently has, huzzah) so I play wherever that group plays, but I still don't want to see this community, despite its continued growth, shrink to one active server with 4 ghost towns.

When that happened on a continuing basis in NWN1, we started shutting servers down.

[Ronan]

I don't think any of the BG team likes ALFA being as concentrated as it currently is.